Baking Cakes for Homosexual Couples

[genuineoriginal]

And that's just a false accusation. You can easily prove yourself wrong in two minutes just by going to the link.

I have seen this kind of link before by your kind.

It amounts to nothing more than saying it is not idolatry when Catholics do the exact things that pagans do with the exact same attitudes and beliefs about the statues they are bowing down to that the pagans have because a Catholic priest has blessed the practice by making the false claim that it is not idolatry if a Catholic does it.


I looked at your link, and found that it contains a very good description of idolatry:

"the honour which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototypa) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore ... and venerate ... whose likenesses they are" (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXV, "de invocatione Sanctorum").​

 

[Skybringr]

I have seen this kind of link before by your kind.

It amounts to nothing more than saying it is not idolatry when Catholics do the exact things that pagans do with the exact same attitudes and beliefs about the statues they are bowing down to that the pagans have because a Catholic priest has blessed the practice by making the false claim that it is not idolatry if a Catholic does it.


I looked at your link, and found that it contains a very good description of idolatry:

"the honour which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototypa) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore ... and venerate ... whose likenesses they are" (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXV, "de invocatione Sanctorum").​

Every instance of idolatry in the Bible is due in making images out of precious metals and giving it a like value to a god. They would make these idols, and people would travel just to pay homage to them. The idols were a requirement to their worship.

There is nothing of the Church that relates to that in the slightest. You all just make things up to demonstrate against the Church. There's not one single thing about the Church that hasn't gotten some absurd accusation by protestants.

You all have no idea what you are talking about on the subject of idolatry. Some of you even condemn yourselves in relaying your opinions on it. Like bringing up the Commandment that one will make no graven image without realizing it's context.
And it's hilarious.

And that hilarity continues as, throughout years and years and years, you all keep circling around and making the claim even after being shown to be sorely wrong.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Every instance of idolatry in the Bible is due in making images out of precious metals and giving it a like value to a god. They would make these idols, and people would travel just to pay homage to them. The idols were a requirement to their worship.

That sounds like what is currently happening in the Catholic church.
Why are you assuming that there is any difference between the practices condemned in the Bible and the same practices that are given Christian names in the Catholic church?
Everyone outside the Catholic church can see the truth of your idolatry, it is only you that are blind to it.

 

[Skybringr]

Everyone outside the Catholic church can see the truth of your idolatry, it is only you that are blind to it.

The people in the 1500's had a reason to protest against the Church. I don't agree with it, but at least there was an actual reason.

You, and others like you- you all have no excuse. You all are anti-Catholic for the sake of being anti-Catholic. It's become a hobby rather then a conviction, and all those who try to show otherwise are just as fake as their alleged claims.

And so there's nothing at stake if you all go on a tangent and throw falsehoods on the Church. Nobody is going to say "You're wrong" and turn against your establishments. But also, you aren't going to gain anyone with those lies either. Not anyone intelligent, anyways.
So it's easy to sit there and promote a lie over and over again, no matter how grossly false it is. Sitting there trying to convince one of your falsehood is what it is- it's not stating a fact, it's being a pathological liar.

 

[TracerBullet]

You can repent of your perversions.

so can you

Or, you can be a sociopath and continue to try to destroy society with your perversions.

so can you

 

[TracerBullet]

Whiny sniveling little crybaby.

yes you are, I'm glad you recognize that about yourself

 

[TracerBullet]

Homosexual marriage is an extremist idea.

no, hate is an extremist idea

It is not normal,

No, it's hate that is abnormal

and is contrary to the normal, natural worldview of proper society.

again you are describing your own position

If homosexuals had any sort of backbone, they would desist in trying to force people to support and condone them.

the very fact that they stand up to bigots and discrimination says that they have plenty of backbone

The liberal side knows nothing of persecution or discrimination for all the whining and moaning they do. If not making a cake for someone is so persecuting, then give me a billion dollars- I'd wager I'm worse off then anyone whose main life concern is a cake!

yes Christians are and always have been the victims of persecution by those nasty gays. /end sarcasm

 

[TracerBullet]

In case you don't know Tracer, Christians come in all colors.

so do gays.

 

[TracerBullet]

Haven't you heard?....only blacks "take it", according to Jesse Jackson. I've never seen or heard him speak up for the American Indian. Some civil rights leader he is!

Our flag is red, white and blue, but our nation is a rainbow - red, yellow, brown, black and white - and we’re all precious in God’s sight. We must heal and expand. The Rainbow Coalition is making room for Arab Americans. They, too, know the pain and hurt of racial and religious rejection. They must not continue to be made pariahs. The Rainbow is making room for the Native American, the most exploited people of all, a people with the greatest moral claim amongst us. We support them as they seek the restoration of their ancient land and claim amongst us. The Rainbow includes disabled veterans. The disabled have their handicap revealed and their genius concealed; while the able-bodied have their genius revealed and their disability concealed. But ultimately, we must judge people by their values and their contribution. Don’t leave anybody out. The Rainbow includes lesbians and gays. No American citizen ought to be denied equal protection from the law." Jesse Jackson

 

[Dialogos]

no, hate is an extremist idea

No, it's hate that is abnormal

So then God is an abnormal hater then?

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Lev 18:22 ESV)

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13 ESV)


For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, amen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Rom 1:26-27 ESV)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Co 6:9-10 ESV)

understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
(1Ti 1:9-10 ESV)

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 ESV)

 

[genuineoriginal]

You, and others like you- you all have no excuse. You all are anti-Catholic for the sake of being anti-Catholic.

I am not anti-Catholic.
I am against the lies spread by the Catholics to justify their pagan practices.
If the pagan practices of the Catholics are what defines them as Catholic, as you and a couple of the other Catholics on this site seem to think, then there is little hope in getting you to repent.

 

[TracerBullet]

So then God is an abnormal hater then?

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Lev 18:22 ESV)

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13 ESV)

“And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.” Leviticus 11:10


“Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people.” Leviticus 10:6

Leviticus 19:19 “Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.”

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, amen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Rom 1:26-27 ESV)

so what we have here are heterosexuals pretending to be gay.
so the sin is going against your own nature. Kind of puts a crimp in the whole ex-gay thing

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Co 6:9-10 ESV)

and the translation of the word arsenokoites to mean homosexual is based on what exactly? For most of Christian history it was translated as a condemnation of either masturbation or kidnapping

understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
(1Ti 1:9-10 ESV)

see above

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 ESV)

'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” Ezekiel 16:49-50

(Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - a term always applied to idol-worship or to objects connected with idolatry)

 

[resurrected]

Our flag is red, white and blue, but our nation is a rainbow - red, yellow, brown, black and white - and we’re all precious in God’s sight. We must heal and expand. The Rainbow Coalition is making room for Arab Americans. They, too, know the pain and hurt of racial and religious rejection. They must not continue to be made pariahs. The Rainbow is making room for the Native American, the most exploited people of all, a people with the greatest moral claim amongst us. We support them as they seek the restoration of their ancient land and claim amongst us. The Rainbow includes disabled veterans. The disabled have their handicap revealed and their genius concealed; while the able-bodied have their genius revealed and their disability concealed. But ultimately, we must judge people by their values and their contribution. Don’t leave anybody out. The Rainbow includes lesbians and gays. No American citizen ought to be denied equal protection from the law." Jesse Jackson

...and coming soon?


pedophiles!

 

[musterion]

...and coming soon?


pedophiles!

Yup. They'll just call themselves Neo-Catamists or something weaselly.

"It's for the children" indeed.

May they all be rewarded according to their works.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Lev 18:22 ESV)

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13 ESV)

Leviticus 18:22 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination (תּוֹעֵבָה tow`ebah).​

Leviticus 20:13 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination (תּוֹעֵבָה tow`ebah): they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

“And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.” Leviticus 11:10

Leviticus 11:10 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination (שֶׁקֶץ sheqets) unto you:​

(Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - a term always applied to idol-worship or to objects connected with idolatry)

Nice try, but we are not talking about שֶׁקֶץ sheqets, we are talking about תּוֹעֵבָה tow`ebah.

Ezra 9:11 11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, (תּוֹעֵבָה tow`ebah) which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.​

 

[Skybringr]

the very fact that they stand up to bigots and discrimination says that they have plenty of backbone

Being troublemakers is what they do. You just romanticize it as them 'standing up'.

One upholding Christianity and desiring exclusively heterosexual relationships in society not bigoted.
For the same reason we don't condone polygamy or bestiality, we do not advocate homosexuality either.

You all are the ones trying to redefine the standard , and calling us bigoted for not agreeing. And for no reason other then to attack us- when was the last time homosexuals were 'persecuted'?
You all have no idea what persecution actually is. Not being able to marry another man is not a breach of your rights- it is like a person complaining that they cannot marry their pet.

 

[resurrected]

traci gushes over her buddies at nambla:

the very fact that they stand up to bigots and discrimination says that they have plenty of backbone

:nono:

 

[Dialogos]

“And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.” Leviticus 11:10

As I think Genuineoriginal has pointed out, שֶׁקֶץ is the word used in Lev 11:10 not תועבה. Not only does this make your point irrelevant, it pretty well disproves the statement you make below:

(Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - a term always applied to idol-worship or to objects connected with idolatry)

Regarding Romans 1. You said:

so what we have here are heterosexuals pretending to be gay.

:rotfl:

Right, because that's a common weekend practice. Straight men who pretend to be gay so they can sleep with other men.




The lengths one will go to pervert God's word.

The Greek word:
φυσικός means:
pert. to being in accordance w. the basic order of things in nature

It has absolutely nothing to do with one's sexual preferences but rather according to to God's created order.
If you actually read your bible you will find that the consistent testimony of scripture from Genesis to Revelation is that marriage is a union of one man and one woman. The natural - God created - purpose for a man's sexuality is to be joined with a woman and the natural - God created - purpose for a woman's sexuality is to be joined with a man (Matthew 19:4-5).

so the sin is going against your own nature.

Wrong and frankly, pretty dumb.

Because, if a person's own natural sexual urges is to have homosexual orgies with multiple underage children then according to this argument it is a sin to deny those urges because would be going against one's nature.

:doh:

So a pedophile should have sex with children because that's his nature, right?

See where this argument leads?

and the translation of the word arsenokoites to mean homosexual is based on what exactly?

Good scholarship versus your interpretation which is based on wishful thinking.

Its abundantly clear that Paul's use of αρσενοκοιτης is informed by his understanding of the Greek Septuigint which uses both the Greek words αρσενος and κοιτης in its condemnation of homosexual behavior.

Specifically in Lev 20:13

The English is:

Leviticus 20:13 aIf a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13 ESV)

The Greek LXX says:

Leviticus 20:13 καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα ἐποίησαν ἀμφότεροι θανατούσθωσαν ἔνοχοί εἰσιν (Lev 20:13 BGT)

For most of Christian history it was translated as a condemnation of either masturbation or kidnapping

Please show us one instance in the bible either in the OT or the LXX where it is used to describe either.

Verse please...

'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” Ezekiel 16:49-50

Yes, those detestable things are referring to the perverted homosexual behavior that the sodomites craved. They were arrogant, did not help the poor and needy and the homosexuality put things over the top.

"And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” (Gen 19:5)

 

[TracerBullet]

Being troublemakers is what they do. You just romanticize it as them 'standing up'.

One upholding Christianity and desiring exclusively heterosexual relationships in society not bigoted.
For the same reason we don't condone polygamy or bestiality, we do not advocate homosexuality either.

You all are the ones trying to redefine the standard , and calling us bigoted for not agreeing. And for no reason other then to attack us- when was the last time homosexuals were 'persecuted'?
You all have no idea what persecution actually is. Not being able to marry another man is not a breach of your rights- it is like a person complaining that they cannot marry their pet.

"You, anti-gay Christian, have the God-given freedom and the American right to believe whatever you want, and to worship and congregate with anyone and everyone who shares your beliefs. What sane person would argue against that?

For all practical purposes (and for such concerns, what else matters?) it is not beliefs that make a bigot. It's actions.

If you vote against gay marriage or gay rights, you are a bigot, as surely as anyone who voted against civil rights in the '60s was a bigot. If you preach against gay rights, you are a bigot. If you write against gay rights, you are a bigot. If you give your money or time to any Christian church or ministry that you know actively works to restrict or limit gay rights in any way, you are a bigot. If, in private, you intimate to your dearest friend that you don't think gay people should be allowed to get married, you are a bigot.

No one wants to be a bigot, of course. Not even the most virulent KKK member will claim that repelling appellation for him- or herself. But bigot is as bigot does.

And since it's impossible for a person to hold a conviction -- especially one based on religious beliefs -- that they don't in some way live out, it is, alas, safe to claim that any and every Christian who believes that gay people shouldn't have every last moral and legal right they claim for themselves is a bigot.

You can't be in the KKK and claim that you're not a bigot; you can't be opposed to LGBT rights and claim that you're not a bigot. Well, you can, of course, but if you do, you are fooling no one, least of all God."

 

[TracerBullet]

The lengths one will go to pervert God's word.

The Greek word:
φυσικός means:
pert. to being in accordance w. the basic order of things in nature

It has absolutely nothing to do with one's sexual preferences but rather according to to God's created order.
If you actually read your bible you will find that the consistent testimony of scripture from Genesis to Revelation is that marriage is a union of one man and one woman. The natural - God created - purpose for a man's sexuality is to be joined with a woman and the natural - God created - purpose for a woman's sexuality is to be joined with a man (Matthew 19:4-5).

except for polygamy, levirate marriages, the use of slaves for surrogate parents, concubines and so on and so on

Wrong and frankly, pretty dumb.

Because, if a person's own natural sexual urges is to have homosexual orgies with multiple underage children then according to this argument it is a sin to deny those urges because would be going against one's nature.

:doh:

So a pedophile should have sex with children because that's his nature, right?

See where this argument leads?

it's more interesting looking where your notion comes from. For generations racist have used the same analogies, linking black people to sexual excess, rape and abuse, to justify their own hate and prejudices.

Is pedophilia related in anyway to homosexuality? no.
is pedophilia an orientation? no.
is pedophilia comparable at all to same gendered relationships? no

do you have any reason other hate to try to associate gays with pedophiles? no

Good scholarship versus your interpretation which is based on wishful thinking.

Its abundantly clear that Paul's use of αρσενοκοιτης is informed by his understanding of the Greek Septuigint which uses both the Greek words αρσενος and κοιτης in its condemnation of homosexual behavior.

Specifically in Lev 20:13

The English is:

Leviticus 20:13 aIf a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13 ESV)

The Greek LXX says:

Leviticus 20:13 καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα ἐποίησαν ἀμφότεροι θανατούσθωσαν ἔνοχοί εἰσιν (Lev 20:13 BGT)

and good scholarship has debunked the Septuigint connection.


arsen and koite ALSO appear in conjunction in Leviticus 20:11, Leviticus 20:12, Leviticus 20:15 and at least three other places, but none of them are connected in nay way to homosexuality. If you're going to use this single conjunction justification to "prove" arsenokoites means homosexual when used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 then you pretty much have to ignore all the other appearances of arsen and koite and the fact that they were referring to completely separate things.


the phrase in the Septuigint you are abusing is: ""kai meta arsenos ou koimêthêsê koitên gynaikos bdelygma gar estin"

breaking this down we get:
"kai" meta" translates roughly to "and with".
"arsenos" means "male" not man which would be "andros"
"koimethese" ="the same as".
"koite" specifically means "marriage bed", not just any bed but a specific couple's bed.
"gunaikos" translates to "wife" or "my woman".
bdelygma = "a cutting, unclean, ritually impure"
"gar estin" roughly for it is

basically it's saying don't bring someone to your and your wife's bed to sleep with them because if you do so you become ritually impure. This isn't a sin which is "zimah" just that after this you must go through a ritual purification.

Please show us one instance in the bible either in the OT or the LXX where it is used to describe either.

look to the Luther Bible and it's descendants for this

Yes, those detestable things are referring to the perverted homosexual behavior that the sodomites craved. They were arrogant, did not help the poor and needy and the homosexuality put things over the top.

"And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” (Gen 19:5)

The lengths one will go to pervert God's word.
Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - a term always applied to idol-worship or to objects connected with idolatry