ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Z Man]

The Bible is selective history. It does not contain every thing that Jesus or God said and did.

The Bible contains everything we need to know to infer who God is. You can't base your theology or idea of God on any other source. Or are you suggesting that we can? If so, what other source exist that we should base our theology upon?

You are taking some historical narratives and making an absolute principle out of them.

There is no basis to conclude omnicausality from the selective examples you quote.

The Bible is my basis! What other text are we suppose to use to base principles and make conclusions upon? The examples I've quoted come straight from Scripture, and you say I have no basis??? That's a ridiculous thing for a Christian to say.

You've opened up a can of worms Godrulz. It seems to me your on the edge of watering down the relevance and primary importance of the Bible. I've never heard a Christian say that there were other sources out there for us to base our ideas upon other than the Bible, as you seem to suggest.

It's obvious that no matter what the Bible says, it's irrelevant to you, because you believe, as you have just stated, that people can't make conclusions based merely upon what the Holy texts say, as I have done.

If man creates a disease in the lab, this is not from God.

A person can only make what was already there. For instance, a person can only make a house out of the timber God made.

Revelations 4:11
You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For YOU CREATED ALL THINGS, And by Your will they exist and were created.


*I'm sure this verse means nothing to you, since the Bible can't be used to base principles and theology upon, as you have so stated.*

As I keep pointing out, Jesus linked disease to sin and Satan at times.

I know people get diseases or suffer tragedy sometimes due to their sin (but not in most cases, as Jesus makes clear in John 9 and Luke 13). The argument isn't why, but how. And of course Satan has afflicted people with diseases, such as in Job. But our sins and Satan are only secondary causes; God is ALWAYS the primary cause behind events. Job said it himself, and the Bible said he was correct in doing so.

Are you saying the Son of God is opposing the will of the Father?

No.

Jesus came to oppose the things contrary to God's will, not affirm everything as God's will.

Ok.

 

[Z Man]

God claimed responsibility for the flood.

It was God's judgement against mankind becoming corrupt.

Yeah, we all understand WHY God caused the flood. But how did the flood happen? Oh, you already answered that:

God claimed responsibility for the flood.

Do you also believe God caused Katrina? Why or why not?

Conversely... God DID NOT CLAIM (or even infer) responsibility for making the man blind in John 9 nor dropping the tower on the 18 and killing them.

If we were to just read John 9 and Luke 13, of course we do not see God claiming responsibility. However, we don't believe in proof-texting, do we? You guys always harass me of taking one verse and running with it, but I'm afraid you are guilty of this very thing! If you believe that it can not be concluded that God is behind every event simply because John 9 and Luke 13 do not suggest it, you are guilty of proof-texting.

If we read the whole Bible, we will discover quite a few events that God claims responsibility for. The most general ones we've seen time and time again are:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Exodus 4:11
So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

2Chronicles 21:18
After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

Job 1, 2
So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; but spare his life." ...And Job said: "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; Blessed be the name of the Lord. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.


With these 4 verses alone, especially the first two, we've already established that God did cause the tower to fall in Shiloam (calamity) and the man to be born blind in John 9 (Ex. 4:11). Why? Because these verses are very specific - God causes:

a) calamity

b) disabilities

c) disease​

There are several more examples in the Bible where God claims responsibility, but I just don't have the time or interest to post a lot of them. Plus, I would say the above verses are the major ones - they go ahead and state immediately who causes calamity/disease/disabilities. So in light of our brief Bible study, I'm sure you can see why it can be concluded God was the primary cause behind events such as John 9 and Luke 13.

Now, you have still yet to tell me how can you judge which events were from God or not? How can you say God was the cause of the worst natural disaster in the history of the planet, then turn around and denounce that God caused this tower to fall, killing a small number of people in comparison to the flood in Genesis, or that He caused a person to be blind? The tower incident, and a person being blind are small things for God to cause in comparison to killing everyone on the planet except eight by a major flood. I don't understand why you support the fact that God caused the worldwide castratophe, yet reject God being the cause of a very small local town incident that killed a few.

 

[Freak]

God's Word is pretty clear!

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Exodus 4:11
So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

2Chronicles 21:18
After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

Job 1, 2
So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; but spare his life." ...And Job said: "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; Blessed be the name of the Lord. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong. .

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse... could it be... for once I think you just said something intelligent... Way to go lad! You did what Knight couldn't do, so congrats for that!

You're right; the judgement wasn't on David's son. And yet, God killed him. Therefore, God does cause suffer and tragedy to those who are not in judgement.

David suffered tragedy, and David was in judgment!:bang:

I'll post this verse for the thousand time just to show that what you just said was dumb:


Exodus 4:11
"Who makes mouths?" the LORD asked him. "Who makes people so they can speak or not speak, hear or not hear, see or not see? Is it not I, the LORD?"

And? This still doesn't prove exhaustive predestination.

No. If he did, the Scriptures wouldn't have agreed with him.

Just asking.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

And? This doesn't actually say Job was attributing this adversity to God. But, there's also the fact that no one, at least not here, has ever said God doesn't cause adversity. But the adversity Job suffered was inflicted by Satan. And Job, apparently, did not know that. Which is quite possibly why he did not sin.

Where? Where does it say, "And God did not cause the tower to fall on them"?

I thought Knight had said it said that. I guess not.

 

[Freak]

Knight,

I do not believe God is evil. He is good. He can, though, use demons, diseases, natural disasters, etc.

Remember the story in Judges 9?

"Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech."

Can God send evil to someone?

"Thus God repaid the wickedness that Abimelech had done to his father by murdering his seventy brothers."

God murderered as a result of divine judgement.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Do you also believe God caused Katrina? Why or why not?

God did not decree Katrina.

Katrina was a hurricane. Hurricanes are: A severe tropical cyclone originating in the equatorial regions of the Atlantic Ocean or Caribbean Sea or eastern regions of the Pacific Ocean, traveling north, northwest, or northeast from its point of origin, and usually involving heavy rains.

I think the god you are thinking of is named: Grothar, God of the Weather or possibly Poseidon, god of water.

If we were to just read John 9 and Luke 13, of course we do not see God claiming responsibility. However, we don't believe in proof-texting, do we? You guys always harass me of taking one verse and running with it, but I'm afraid you are guilty of this very thing! If you believe that it can not be concluded that God is behind every event simply because John 9 and Luke 13 do not suggest it, you are guilty of proof-texting.

Z Man... :chuckle: it was you who brought up John 9, not me. :doh:

If we read the whole Bible, we will discover quite a few events that God claims responsibility for. The most general ones we've seen time and time again are:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

God is explaining that He is the only real God, everything that was created and everything that exists, exists because He created it!

"Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, "

If we obey Him we will be blessed if we do not obey Him, He will bring judgement upon us. God will bring calamity to the wicked for it is their punishement for their sin.

Exodus 4:11

So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

See above.

2Chronicles 21:18

After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.

God was punishing a wicked ruler....

2Chronicles 21:12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus says the LORD God of your father David: Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot like the harlotry of the house of Ahab, and also have killed your brothers, those of your father’s household, who were better than yourself, 14 behold, the LORD will strike your people with a serious affliction — your children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.

Now, you have still yet to tell me how can you judge which events were from God or not?

Do you believe that God is righteous? Do you believe that God does unrighteous things?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

"Thus God repaid the wickedness that Abimelech had done to his father by murdering his seventy brothers."

God murderered as a result of divine judgement.

:shocked: Yikes!!!

What translation states that????? Is it the HIV errr NIV???

I can't find a single translation that claims God "murdered".

Normally it goes something like this...

Judges 9:56 Thus God repaid the wickedness of Abimelech, which he had done to his father by killing his seventy brothers. NKJV

Or...

Judges 9:56 Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren: KJV

Or...

Judges 9:56 Thus God requited the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren; ASV

Personally I would throw out any Bible translation that states God that God is a murderer.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Z Man's god :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I do not believe God is evil. He is good. He can, though, use demons, diseases, natural disasters, etc.

But do you believe God actually does evil?

Or does God do righteous things that apear "evil" from the perspective of those being judged?

In other words...
If God said to the wicked... "I will bring evil upon you."

He wouldn't actually be bringing evil which would be wicked and unrighteous but instead be bringing severe judgement and telling the wicked in terms that they could understand (I will bring evil upon you) .

Otherwise, God is no different than Satan.

 

[Freak]

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally
Slay: to kill violently

Normally it goes something like this...

Judges 9:56 Thus God repaid the wickedness of Abimelech, which he had done to his father by killing his seventy brothers. NKJV

Let's use your NKJV.

God killed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally
Slay: to kill violently Let's use your NKJV.

God killed.

Killing and murdering are all together different.

Murdering is unlawfully killing the innocent with malice. In other words by definition murder is wicked.

Do you think God murders?

Why did you misquote Judges 9:56?

 

[Freak]

But do you believe God actually does evil?

God is not evil! He is good. But we can use evil. The key word is: use!

I'll use King James for YOU.

For example, in Judges 9, He used an evil spirit for His divine purposes:

"Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech.

God used evil, in this case an evil spirit that knows nothing but evil for His purposes.

Knight: did God use something evil for His purposes? Yes or no?

Otherwise, God is no different than Satan.

God is different as God can use Satan for His purposes, see Paul's thorn as case in point. Satan cannot use God! God is good, He is NOT evil. He is love!

 

[Freak]

Killing and murdering are all together different.

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally

Murdering is unlawfully killing the innocent with malice.

Depends on what dictionary you look at. Murder, can mean, to kill brutally.

Why did you misquote Judges 9:56?

I didn't.

God kills. God is love but He is also a God who pours out wrath and this may include killing someone as seen in Scripture.

"And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem."

Slew means to kill.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally

Get a new dictionary.

For if your definition is complete thousands of righteous men are now murderers.

Not to mention all the animals who "murder". :chuckle:

Furthermore... if your definition of murder is complete it would mean you couldn't murder unless it was "brutal" and of course we know that also isn't necessarily true.

Seriously Freak, your definition of murder is entirely incomplete.

mur·der Pronunciation Key (mûr

d

r)
n.

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

 

[Lighthouse]

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally
Slay: to kill violently Let's use your NKJV.

God killed.

So? God killed Annanias and Sapphirah, too. And others. So what? Do you think the dictionary is right on the definition of murder, or is God right?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Freak I asked you why you misquted Judges 9:56 and you said...

I didn't.

Freak can you point me to any Bible translation that states....

"Thus God repaid the wickedness that Abimelech had done to his father by murdering his seventy brothers." - Judges 9:56

 

[Delmar]

The dictionary defines murder: to kill brutally

Depends on what dictionary you look at. Murder, can mean, to kill brutally.

I didn't.

God kills. God is love but He is also a God who pours out wrath and this may include killing someone as seen in Scripture.

"And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem."

Slew means to kill.

So you are saying you have a lousy Bible translation
and a lousy dictionary?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

By the way.... Freak you took me off guard when you stated that God murdered.

I think you have the story all wrong.

Abimelech is the one who murdered the 70.

God repaid Abimelech for this murder by having Abimelech killed.

Therefore...
Thus God repaid the wickedness of Abimelech, which he had done to his father by killing his seventy brothers. Judges 9:56

The repayment was for this...

Then he went to his father’s house at Ophrah and killed his brothers, the seventy sons of Jerubbaal, on one stone. But Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left, because he hid himself. Judges 9:5

For this God sent judgement against Abimelech...
But a certain woman dropped an upper millstone on Abimelech’s head and crushed his skull. Then he called quickly to the young man, his armorbearer, and said to him, “Draw your sword and kill me, lest men say of me, ‘A woman killed him.’ ” So his young man thrust him through, and he died. And when the men of Israel saw that Abimelech was dead, they departed, every man to his place. Judges 9:53-55

God repaid Abimelech by allowing the woman to crush his skull for his wickedness and for killing the 70.

I haven't studied Judges in a while can someone correct me if I am wrong? Either way God didn't "murder" anyone.

 

[Freak]

Get a new dictionary.

Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc defines murder: to kill

 

[Freak]

:nono:

So you are saying you have a lousy Bible translation
and a lousy dictionary?

I use NKJV, NASB, NIV, KJV. I'm not a KJV-only believer. I use different dictionaries too like the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc...