ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

:sigh:

For the 1,000,000th and one time, I've never said that.

Z Man... you asked how I could know what things were caused by God and what things weren't.

You believe God was the cause of one flood, but not all; the cause of a few people dying, but not everyone. I'm interested to know how you can tell which events are caused by God or not. That one flood you say God caused was a worldwide catastrophe, killing all but eight - do you believe God caused a very minor flood in comparison most recently in New Orleans? If not, why? How can you tell if it was the cause of God or not? What do you base your judgements upon? how many people die? how much destruction is caused? If so, then surely God must of been behind the flood in New Orleans because the damage done there was a blessing compared to the flood we know of in Genesis.

We're intrigued Knight. Let us know the secrets to your unbountiful knowledge, o mighty one who isn't dumb.

So, I am telling you ....

- Goodness is from God.
- Wickedness is not from God.

And if the above is true... then NOT everything is decreed by God as you would have us believe.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Lighthouse,

Do you ever have anything intelligent to say?

Have you ever seen 'A Christmas Story'? You know that bully that ends up getting an ol' fashion whippin' from Ralph? Well, you remind me of the bully's puny red-headed sidekick. You just tag along with Knight, Clete, and other OV'ers on this site like a parasite, or those birds that ride on rhino's backs picking off their parasites, or like a person's shadow, doing nothing more than hurling non-intelligent insults, maybe with a smilie or two. And that's about it. I'm sure Knight only keeps you around because you make him feel better about his posts.

It's Lighthouse's destiny.

God chose him to be a "parasite" sent to annoy you.

 

[godrulz]

Do you feel like saying you're wrong for declaring people don't get diseases from God?

We are saying that not all disease, disaster, accident is God's will or from God.

 

[godrulz]

Well, I'll admit, I'm pretty dumb. I don't know everything like you.



Why not?

Why not?

The extrapolation from the specific to the general is a basic logical fallacy. Other relevant verses and God's self-revelation answers 'why not'? Your hyper-sovereignty views distort the fact that God used His will to create significant others with a say so. He macro vs micromanages His creation because He is loving and competent. He is not a cosmic control freak nor does He need to be to bring His plans/project to fruition.

 

[godrulz]

:sigh:

For the 1,000,000th and one time, I've never said that.

You are starting to crack and starting to see the inconsistency of your own position. Well done, Knight and the Holy Spirit/Word.

 

[Freak]

:dead: You're brain dead, godrulz. I'm not going to waste my limited time on you anymore on this subject except to say this...

What is 'this'? The thing that glorified God was the healing at that point in space-time history,

"As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

The "this" is the blindess, it is not the healing as the healing DID NOT occur at this point (it would occur next; however).

The disciples asked about the man's blindness, that's what "this" is!

"but this happened" was an answer Jesus gave to the disciples whom earlier asked:

"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

...not the erroneous idea that God cursed him blind at birth.

:dizzy: godrulz, Jesus DID not say the man was cursed! Nobody claimed he was cursed. This was something you created out of thin air.

Did God cause people to be demon possessed in order for Him to be glorified by setting them free, or was He glorified by setting those who were afflicted by SATAN free?

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

When we are weak--in this case Paul's demonic affliction-Christ is powerful. He is glorified!

That is why Paul stated this:

I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

godrulz= :dunce:

 

[godrulz]

Say it aint so. I thought we were friends, freak. You are coming down to sozo's level.

The external buffeting of Paul by a messenger of Satan is NOT the same as the demon possession cases in the Gospels that Jesus dealt with. Oppression is not possession. Believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not of legions of demons. Why would you take a different context/concept to prop up your wrong ideas about demonology? Paul is a believer with a specific situation (cf. Job), not an unbeliever with another situation that is fundamentally different and dealt with differently by Jesus.

 

[Freak]

Say it aint so. I thought we were friends, freak. You are coming down to sozo's level.

We are friends but I'm frustrated with your pious attitude (others have made similar remarks concering you, perhaps you need to reexamine?)

The external buffeting of Paul by a messenger of Satan is NOT the same as the demon possession cases in the Gospels that Jesus dealt with. Oppression is not possession. Believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not of legions of demons. Why would you take a different context/concept to prop up your wrong ideas about demonology? Paul is a believer with a specific situation (cf. Job), not an unbeliever with another situation that is fundamentally different and dealt with differently by Jesus.

This is for another thread. As you know I do not believe Christians can be demon possessed as it is implies ownership, Christians can not be owned by demons.

However, I do believe Christians be afflicted internally by demons as seen in this case with Paul.

"...there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." This torment was from Satan & it was internal! It wasn't external, silly man!

It was "in" his flesh!!!!!! Besides the torment wasn't external but internal!

Furthermore, the apostle Paul tells believers, "...and do not give the devil a foothold."

Can believers give the devil a foothold? This of course would mean something you give over to Satan internally not externally, silly man! You cannot give Satan a foothold externally.

The fact is this: God used Paul's afflictions to bring glory to Him. When we are weak, Christ is strong! Jesus was glorified through the blind man's total reliance upon Him! That's what happens when one's weak, we depend on the One whom is strong!

Think, man, think! :doh:

 

[Delmar]

Been there done that Clete. But it's a self-defeating purpose anyways, because you've already made up in your mind that you're in control, not God, no matter what evidence is brought before your eyes.

The hilarious thing is that you make hundreds of choices every day and yet you are convinced that you are in control of none of them! What a retard!

 

[Z Man]

Z Man... you asked how I could know what things were caused by God and what things weren't.So, I am telling you ....

- Goodness is from God.
- Wickedness is not from God.

And if the above is true... then NOT everything is decreed by God as you would have us believe.

That doesn't answer anything. It only adds another layer to your deepened dilemma.

Earlier you said you believe the world flood in Genesis was from God and caused by Him. That flood destroyed everything except eight people. Do you beleive that this was 'goodness from God'?

Earlier you also stated that God does indeed inflict people with death or disease, but only in judgement. However, through the Scriptures, I've made the point several times that there are numerous places in the Bible that speak of people dying or recieving disease from God and it wasn't in judgement. Do you believe that the death of David's firstborn was 'goodness from God'?

So you see, you haven't really answered the question at all. You've only made it more problematic for yourself. If you truly believe 'Goodness is from God' is your answer, then you are simply agreeing with me that the tragedies and sufferings we experience in life are 'Goodness from God'.

Again I ask you Knight, how can you judge which events were from God or not? How can you say God was the cause of the worst natural disaster in the history of the planet, then turn around and criticize those who claim God was the ultimate cause of Katrina, or any other catastrophes that are small in comparison to the flood in Genesis?

 

[Z Man]

The hilarious thing is that you make hundreds of choices every day and yet you are convinced that you are in control of none of them! What a retard!

Proverbs 10:8
The wise in heart will receive commands, but a prating fool will fall.

 

[Clete]

How can you say God was the cause of the worst natural disaster in the history of the planet, then turn around and criticize those who claim God was the ultimate cause of Katrina, or any other catastrophes that are small in comparison to the flood in Genesis?

The former does not imply the latter Z Man! That's the whole problem with basically your entire theology. You have a proof-text mentality that inevitably leads to this sort of error. Even if we granted for the sake of argument that God kills people for seeming no reason at all that doesn't mean that God killed every person that has ever died. Likewise, even if God were to give someone a disease for no reason at all (which of course is ludicrous) that would not mean that all diseases gotten by anyone anywhere at anytime where all given by God. That just isn't a logical conclusion to come to in any respect. This is why your proof-texting doesn't convince anyone. Not only are the texts you quote removed from their context but even if they weren't they wouldn't prove the thesis which you are trying to prove by citing them.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Earlier you said you believe the world flood in Genesis was from God and caused by Him. That flood destroyed everything except eight people. Do you beleive that this was 'goodness from God'?

Of course!

God sparred the world!

Mankind had become exceedingly wicked. "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Earlier you also stated that God does indeed inflict people with death or disease, but only in judgement. However, through the Scriptures, I've made the point several times that there are numerous places in the Bible that speak of people dying or recieving disease from God and it wasn't in judgement. Do you believe that the death of David's firstborn was 'goodness from God'?

Not a single verse you referenced showed God giving anyone a disease for anything other than Judgement.

I already showed you verse by verse how you were in error.

So you see, you haven't really answered the question at all.

Your eyes are blinded by awful theology. But it sure is fun refuting you. :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Proverbs 10:8
The wise in heart will receive commands, but a prating fool will fall.

The WISE heart Z Man. The WISE heart!

Do ya get it??????

Even your proof text refutes your point! :rotfl:

God guides our hearst but ONLY if we let Him.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. - Proverbs 3:5-7

Z Man denies that we have "our own understanding", Z Man believes that we CAN'T HELP but acknowledge Him in all our ways. Even when we do stupid wicked things God is guiding us, according to Z Man. :vomit:

 

[Z Man]

How can you say God was the cause of the worst natural disaster in the history of the planet, then turn around and criticize those who claim God was the ultimate cause of Katrina, or any other catastrophes that are small in comparison to the flood in Genesis?

The former does not imply the latter Z Man! That's the whole problem with basically your entire theology. You have a proof-text mentality that inevitably leads to this sort of error. Even if we granted for the sake of argument that God kills people for seeming no reason at all that doesn't mean that God killed every person that has ever died. Likewise, even if God were to give someone a disease for no reason at all (which of course is ludicrous) that would not mean that all diseases gotten by anyone anywhere at anytime where all given by God. That just isn't a logical conclusion to come to in any respect.

It's called inductive reasoning, and it's the best we can do with what we have in the Scriptures Clete. I would believe that as Christians, it would be best to base our conclusions upon Scripture alone, correct? Otherwise, anything can be truth.

The Scriptures tell us numerous times of God causing calamity. You can't argue against that. God caused the flood in Genesis; He caused several plagues that killed several people; He caused famine; He caused death and destruction; and He caused these events in several places and upon several peoples (Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Amorites, Israelites, etc). Whether these cases are God casting judgement upon the people or not, the point is Scripture declares God caused the events.

Now, through inductive reasoning, every sane and reasonable person can only conclude one thing from this:

Major catastrophes and tragedies in the Bible were caused by God

THEREFORE

God is behind ALL catastrophes and tragedies in life

It's the ONLY reasonable conclusion Clete. If a person was to research the color of crows, and after years of studying find that all observable crows were black, I'm confident their conclusion would be that all crows are black. In our case as Christians, our studies of Scripture lead to an inevitable conclusion that God is the cause of ALL catastrophes.

To say God only caused what is said in the Bible leads to the questions I have been asking you and Knight;

What other sources do you have that lead to the conclusion that God is only limited to causing the events we read about in the Bible, and not all of them?

Not only are the texts you quote removed from their context but even if they weren't they wouldn't prove the thesis which you are trying to prove by citing them.

You just stated that whether I used verses in context or not, they wouldn't prove anything. Well, again, what 'outside' source do you suggest Clete? Is there a more important book out there that the rest of us Christians don't know about? Please, enlighten us...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To say God only caused what is said in the Bible leads to the questions I have been asking you and Knight;

What other sources do you have that lead to the conclusion that God is only limited to causing the events we read about in the Bible, and not all of them?

And I answered when I stated...

God said so.

God is clear about the events that are results of His judgement and the events that are man made or events that happen simply by chance.

 

[Z Man]

Knight,

You're still stuck on this 'judgement' mess? I thought we worked through that already? I don't recall you ever telling us what David's firstborn ever did to receive God's judgement; or telling us what the blind man in John 9 ever did to become blind (oh wait, you don't have to - Jesus already answers that for us, and He pretty much says you're wrong). Knight, please, do tell, what did Job ever do to deserve the tragedy of his family or his boils? Did those men in Shiloam die in the tower incident because of God's judgement? (Jesus answers that one too - He says they were no worse than any other sinners, thus eliminating the disciple's idea that people experienced tragedy and sufferings because they did something wrong and were being judged by God for it.)

See post #2205 for further explanation, since you obviously skipped that one, or else I wouldn't be repeating myself.

 

[Z Man]

The WISE heart Z Man. The WISE heart!

Do ya get it??????

Oh yeah, I got it alright. Deardelmar thinks I'm 'retarded' for believing I'm not in control, and I just wanted to show him, in a Christianly and loving way, that the Scriptures actually say the opposite... :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

You're still stuck on this 'judgement' mess? I thought we worked through that already? I don't recall you ever telling us what David's firstborn ever did to receive God's judgement;

You must not have read the story.

God did not arbitrarily smite David and his family. It was David's disobedience that lead to God's punishment of David and his family.

or telling us what the blind man in John 9 ever did to become blind (oh wait, you don't have to - Jesus already answers that for us, and He pretty much says you're wrong).

The blind man in John 9 wasn't made blind by God!

You are making an assertion about him that simply isn't there.

Knight, please, do tell, what did Job ever do to deserve the tragedy of his family or his boils?

Again.... (for the 100th time) God didn't do a thing to Job. Only a sick a perverted person like you would attribute Satan's actions to God.

Did those men in Shiloam die in the tower incident because of God's judgement? (Jesus answers that one too - He says they were no worse than any other sinners, thus eliminating the disciple's idea that people experienced tragedy and sufferings because they did something wrong and were being judged by God for it.)

Exactly!!!

The tower fell on them by chance!

You are hilarious Z Man!!! Can I hire you to be the "worst case scenario example" of what Calvinism can do to a mushy brain?

Awesome stuff!

 

[Z Man]

You must not have read the story.

God did not arbitrarily smite David and his family. It was David's disobedience that lead to God's punishment of David and his family.

I didn't ask you what did David do - I know the story quite well.

Knight, what did David's firstborn son ever do to receive God's judgement?

The blind man in John 9 wasn't made blind by God!

You are making an assertion about him that simply isn't there.

It is if you use your noggin'. Ex. 4:11 says God creates the blind. So, through inductive reasoning (bare with me Knight - get a pen and paper if necessary):

A man is born blind

God creates blind people

THEREFORE

God created the blind guy in John 9

Did you get all that? Now go take some Advil. I don't want you getting a headache on my behalf.

Again.... (for the 100th time) God didn't do a thing to Job. Only a sick a perverted person like you would attribute Satan's actions to God.

Are you calling Job sick and perverted? Because last I checked, he attributed his afflictions to God:

Job 2:7-10
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes. Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!" But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


The Scriptures do a good job of making you look like an idiot.

Exactly!!!

The tower fell on them by chance!

I don't think you can read English very well, or at least hold the capacity to logically connect words together to come to an implied conclusion, because no where did I ever mention anything about the tower falling on these men by chance, nor do the Scriptures. It's blatantly obvious that in this instance, you're putting in your own ideas and opinions.

Knight, how can you judge which events were from God or not? How can you say God was the cause of the worst natural disaster in the history of the planet, then turn around and denounce that God caused this tower to fall, killing a small number of people in comparison to the flood in Genesis?