ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Z Man]

I am suggesting your exegesis is questionable at times due to using isolated texts improperly.

Improperly? I believe you are a pompous person; who are you to judge that the way I present and debate Scriptures are improper? I would understand your point if I was to post Ps 14:1 and argue it proves there is no God. However, I've merely quoted Scriptures (numerous at that) that are more than adequate and very straight forward concerning the topic at hand (most recently, those concerning God and diseases). If we were to debate on whether Jesus had one arm or not, and I presented a verse that says, "Jesus had one arm", I'm willing to bet you'd say I was 'proof-texting' the Scriptures wrongly to manipulate it and conform it to my beliefs. That's how stubborn I truly believe you to be, because I've done the same with verses concerning God and diseases - verses that are really straight forward - yet you always reply that I'm interpreting the Scriptures wrong.

I don't take you seriously anymore Godrulz, because I feel that you don't take the Scriptures seriously.

It seems to me that you did conclude that God uses exhaustive, meticulous control, and that He is in control of everything, including evil. You may try to say that He does so without being responsible, but that does not compute.

If I may, I believe you do not understand that God is in complete control without being responsible of committing evil because you are looking at God the wrong way. Killing people, or what we call 'murder', may be wrong and 'evil' for us, but I do not believe we can hold God accountable to the same rules. God did not create the law for Himself; He created it for us. Rules do not apply to God - He can do as He pleases, and the Scriptures unanimously support this! Holding God accountable to follow the same rules He laid down for us is a logical fallacy.

You have proof texted verses about God doing 'evil' to prove your point.

This proves how different of a perspective we both have on the same issue. For instance, you say I post verses about God 'doing evil'. But to me, I post verses of God doing things we may consider evil to prove that God is not liable or guilty for doing them! The Scriptures tell us of a God who has ordained several things we may consider 'wrong', but this only proves He can do what He wishes and not be held accountable.

What I'm trying to say is I may post a verse such as Ex. 4:11 and you may see it and say, "That guy is saying God is evil". But that's not my motives at all! The error begins with our definition of evil. You think it's bad if someone is born blind, deaf, mute, etc., but I don't. Sure, if compared to humans who do not have a disability, it seems that a born blind man may have got shafted, but we shouldn't look at things from our perspective - from what we consider good, such as health, success, comforts, etc. These are things we would all enjoy to have, but God has a different agenda. After converting Paul, God tells Ananias "he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [And] I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." Paul's comfort, health, and success in his personal life was not of dire importance to God. God was going to make Paul suffer a life of servitude for the Gospel's sake.

Thus, whenever I get on this site and start posting what may seem crazy stuff, like God predestines everything, including murders and other crimes we consider evil, I'm not attributing evil to God. I'm merely making the point that He has a greater and better plan in store for all of our lives, and sometimes He must actuate His plan through means that we may not enjoy, such as suffering, death, disease, and so forth.

This is God's creation, and He has every right to do as He sees fit with it. I don't believe God is some sort of huge 'care bear' in the sky who takes our 'physical' interests to heart, or hesitates to act upon His will if it somehow interfers with our 'freedom' and 'comforts'. Call me a Jehovah Witness, or a blaspheming Calvinist, or God-hater, or whatever, but that's what I beleive simply because that's what I see when I read the Scriptures.

God bless.

:zman:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't take you seriously anymore Godrulz, because I feel that you don't take the Scriptures seriously.

Do you feel that Godrulz should try to follow God's will more closely on this issue?

 

[Z Man]

Godrulz very rarely substantiates his points either and has gotten his share of my criticism for it, but the difference between him and you is that he doesn't pretend like he's substantiated anything. He is content to simply express his agreement or disagreement and let that be basically it. You, on the other hand, pretend to have proven something that you know you haven't proven.


I didn't simply make the claim and let it hang out there as though it is true because Clete Pfeiffer uttered it. I presented this thread as evidence to SUBSTANTIATE the claim. You literally don't know a substantive argument when you see one do you?

Whatever Clete. I've made my points more than clear with adequate Scriptures that are straight forward on specifically this thread's topic at hand. No one, NO ONE, not even Knight, has refuted anything I've had to say with anything credible. All I've gotten is a bunch of whining and complaints about how I attribute evil to God. But no one has bothered taking a look at the Scriptures I've posted and giving them an honest critique.

I have nothing to 'prove' Clete. I simply want to make clear people's mistakes when they utter false statements such as "God doesn't make people blind", or "He doesn't give people diseases". My thesis from the very beginning of this thread was to show that Scriptures say otherwise. And I've still yet to receive, nay, this website's community has yet to recieve an apology for the wrong conclusions made earlier in this thread.

 

[Z Man]

Do you feel that Godrulz should try to follow God's will more closely on this issue?

Do you feel like saying you're wrong for declaring people don't get diseases from God?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Do you feel like saying you're wrong for declaring people don't get diseases from God?

How dumb are you?

Seriously?

Because God flooded the earth ONCE does that mean that EVERY FLOOD is God's handiwork? Of course not!

Because God struck people dead (in judgement) in the past does that mean EVERY PERSON who dies has been killed by God?

 

[Z Man]

How dumb are you?

Seriously?

Well, I'll admit, I'm pretty dumb. I don't know everything like you.

Because God flooded the earth ONCE does that mean that EVERY FLOOD is God's handiwork? Of course not!

Why not?

Because God struck people dead (in judgement) in the past does that mean EVERY PERSON who dies has been killed by God?

Why not?

 

[Lighthouse]

SFor the 1,000,000th time, I've never said that.

You don't have to.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why not?

Because God says so.

“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? - Luke 13:3-4

In other words....
Jesus is saying, these people were simply a victim of chance. God was not killing them by dropping a tower on them.

Also...
God says men who sin, sin by their own freewill.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. - James 1:13-14

Therefore, when one man murders another man it is not God's handiwork as you Calvinists would have us believe.

 

[Lighthouse]

Why not?

Why not?

:squint:

 

[Z Man]

Because God flooded the earth ONCE does that mean that EVERY FLOOD is God's handiwork? Of course not!

Because God struck people dead (in judgement) in the past does that mean EVERY PERSON who dies has been killed by God?

Why not?

Because God says so.

You believe God was the cause of one flood, but not all; the cause of a few people dying, but not everyone. I'm interested to know how you can tell which events are caused by God or not. That one flood you say God caused was a worldwide catastrophe, killing all but eight - do you believe God caused a very minor flood in comparison most recently in New Orleans? If not, why? How can you tell if it was the cause of God or not? What do you base your judgements upon? how many people die? how much destruction is caused? If so, then surely God must of been behind the flood in New Orleans because the damage done there was a blessing compared to the flood we know of in Genesis.

We're intrigued Knight. Let us know the secrets to your unbountiful knowledge, o mighty one who isn't dumb.

“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? - Luke 13:3-4

In other words....
Jesus is saying, these people were simply a victim of chance. God was not killing them by dropping a tower on them.

I see this statement from Christ as a means to correct His disciples' misunderstanding on why people suffer from tragedy. Their common understanding of such an event as a tower falling on people, or a person being born blind, was that it was a form of punishment from God for their wrong doing (much like you believe). But Christ is trying to illustrate that the men who died tragically in Siloam were no worse than anybody else. Just like in John 9; the disciples, upon seeing a blind man from birth, immediately question Christ as to the cause of his blindness. "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus replied, "It was not because of his sins or his parents' sins. He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him".

Unlike what you keep insisting on this thread ("God strikes people dead in judgement"), Jesus states the opposite. Those people who died in Shiloam didn't die because they were horrible sinners; the guy in John 9 wasn't born blind because of his parent's sins; not everyone is given a disease, or a life of suffering, because they sinned or disobeyed God. The rain falls on the just and the unjust (Matt. 5:45). God uses tragedy to display His glory. Your verse from Luke 14 iterates this point. Thanks.

 

[Z Man]

Lighthouse,

Do you ever have anything intelligent to say?

Have you ever seen 'A Christmas Story'? You know that bully that ends up getting an ol' fashion whippin' from Ralph? Well, you remind me of the bully's puny red-headed sidekick. You just tag along with Knight, Clete, and other OV'ers on this site like a parasite, or those birds that ride on rhino's backs picking off their parasites, or like a person's shadow, doing nothing more than hurling non-intelligent insults, maybe with a smilie or two. And that's about it. I'm sure Knight only keeps you around because you make him feel better about his posts.

 

[Lighthouse]

If I said something intelligent you wouldn't be able to understand it.

 

[Z Man]

If I said something intelligent you wouldn't be able to understand it.

Thanks for proving my point...

 

[Lighthouse]

You think God is responsible every time someone dies, or gets sick, or there's a natural disaster. There's nothing intelligent in that.:nono:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

We're intrigued Knight. Let us know the secrets to your unbountiful knowledge, o mighty one who isn't dumb.

It's pretty simple really. Even most 3 year olds have a good grasp on such elementary biblical concepts, it goes something like this....

Good and righteous things come from God.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. - James 1:17

Yet evil and wickedness are not to be credited to God...

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight! -Isaiah 5:20-21

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. - Psalms 5:4

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. - Psalms 45:7

A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will not know wickedness. - Psalms 101:4

God is not the author of wickedness...

The righteousness of the blameless will direct his way aright, But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness. - Proverbs 11:5

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This stuff is SO tricky!!!! (not)

This stuff is SO tricky!!!! (not)

Lets review....

- Goodness is from God.
- Wickedness is not from God.

 

[Poly]

Lets review....

- Goodness is from God.
- Wickedness is not from God.

Hang on!!! You're going too fast for me. Let me write this down.

This is going to require some real mind challenge. I'm probably going to need the rest of the evening just to sort all out all the heavy points made in this post alone.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Hang on!!! You're going too fast for me. Let me write this down.

This is going to require some real mind challenge. I'm probably going to need the rest of the evening just to sort all out all the heavy points made in this post alone.

I know... I know.... this stuff can be so complicated.

Maybe you could have one of your children explain it to you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Lets go over it one more time for anyone who missed it....

- Goodness is from God.
- Wickedness is not from God.

Or how about this....

- God = good.
- Wicked = bad.

 

[Z Man]

Yet evil and wickedness are not to be credited to God...

:sigh:

For the 1,000,000th and one time, I've never said that.