ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Philetus

Philetus

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WEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Lee,

It is fairly obvious God knows at least three things. First, not everyone will be saved, and since some have already died in their sins that should be as obvious to us as it is to God by now. And second, He has a unique relationship with Israel yet even some of them have died without repenting and third, some people are so stubborn that they will never quit asking the same question over and over and over again, which is now obvious to even more of us.

I recently visited a Sunday School class that I had participated in while a freshman 30 years ago. I recognized and remembered the majority from years past and was both amused and saddened that those older, fatter, balder aging Christians were sitting in the same chairs, in the same room (arguing for the most part with Christians just down the street, sitting in their chairs in their rooms, Christians whom they have never met) arguing over the meaning of the same terms that had preoccupied them for decades. I'm older, fatter, have all my hair and am aging, too. But, somethings just don't matter, Lee.

Philetus
 
elected4ever

elected4ever

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Philetus said:
:chuckle:

I don't know that God's foreknowledge exists! Especially the way you define it. You can't say it can you? The label exhaustive applies to your definition no matter how much you deny it.
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What I think is that we mix apples and oranges with our generalities. It is the plan that is predestined. Not our choices. God gave man dominion over the earth and man is responsible for what he does with it. Man cannot be responsible if man cannot make a choice. I think God did limit the choices of man by not giving man absolute knowledge. Just because man does not have absolute knowledge is not to say that God does not. Man does not have absolute ability but that does not say that God does not. It is painting God with the color of man that is my objection. Not whether man has free will or not. God cannot be confine by the limitations of the created.
 
lee_merrill

lee_merrill

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Philetus said:
He has a unique relationship with Israel yet even some of them have died without repenting and third, some people are so stubborn that they will never quit asking the same question over and over and over again, which is now obvious to even more of us.
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Yes, but God knows! So this is--as someone I believe, said--not a matter of odds.

There would be no problem if God were to say "I estimate only a remnant will be saved"...

Blessings,
Lee
 
Philetus

Philetus

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elected4ever said:
What I think is that we mix apples and oranges with our generalities. It is the plan that is predestined. Not our choices. God gave man dominion over the earth and man is responsible for what he does with it. Man cannot be responsible if man cannot make a choice.



I think God did limit the choices of man by not giving man absolute knowledge. Just because man does not have absolute knowledge is not to say that God does not. Man does not have absolute ability but that does not say that God does not. It is painting God with the color of man that is my objection. Not whether man has free will or not. God cannot be confine by the limitations of the created.
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I appreciate this post, E, I do! But, apples and oranges indeed!

Absolute knowledge? Is that the same as exhaustive foreknowledge? If it is total knowledge of all past and present realities and future possibilities, then I agree. But, then you start mixing your fruit salad.

It is His plan for the future that God knows absolutely. And it is His absolute ability to reach that future and achieve His goals without absolute knowledge of our future decisions that makes God God according to the scriptures. Who’s painting God otherwise?

God relates to this universe in a way that is companionable and congruent with the reality of this universe. How could He do otherwise and it make any sense to us. And it is supposed to make sense to us, isn’t it?

Painting God? Limiting God? Reducing God? Creating God in our own image? Not at all! How about just knowing God as He makes Himself known instead of exaggerating His knowledge of our future decisions (if they are in fact our decisions)?

Philetus
 
Philetus

Philetus

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lee_merrill said:
Yes, but God knows! So this is--as someone I believe, said--not a matter of odds.

There would be no problem if God were to say "I estimate only a remnant will be saved"...

Blessings,
Lee
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Who can say that a remnant isn't an estimate on God's part? As it has been pointed out before (many many many many times) a remnant isn't an exact number ... is it?

Why do you find it so incredible that I know that a remnant of the seeds I planted recently won't germinate? Only a remnant will sprout. A remnant will not. They merely react to contingencies like soil, water, warmth, light. I know the seeds don't have freewill but each has its own identity and characteristics. While I don't know exactly how many tomatoes each plant will produce, I do know that my tomato plants won’t produce bananas. How can you find it so implausible that God relates to His creations in the same way?

Philetus
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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Philetus said:
God is loving and gracious enough to "make a sinner into a righteous sinner" without resorting to raw power to do so.

P
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I'd say the gospel is raw power. Can you imagine the power it took for Jesus to be made sin, to be made accursed, to be immersed into death and hades, and then rise again victorious over it?
 
elected4ever

elected4ever

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Philetus said:
I appreciate this post, E, I do! But, apples and oranges indeed!

Absolute knowledge? Is that the same as exhaustive foreknowledge? If it is total knowledge of all past and present realities and future possibilities, then I agree. But, then you start mixing your fruit salad.

It is His plan for the future that God knows absolutely. And it is His absolute ability to reach that future and achieve His goals without absolute knowledge of our future decisions that makes God God according to the scriptures. Who’s painting God otherwise?

God relates to this universe in a way that is companionable and congruent with the reality of this universe. How could He do otherwise and it make any sense to us. And it is supposed to make sense to us, isn’t it?

Painting God? Limiting God? Reducing God? Creating God in our own image? Not at all! How about just knowing God as He makes Himself known instead of exaggerating His knowledge of our future decisions (if they are in fact our decisions)?

Philetus
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God's knowing does not prevent us from doing anything. What limits us is our knowledge or the lack thereof.
 
G

godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
God is powerful enough to make a sinner into a righteous sinner, surely
he could make a circular square! :D
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Man is smart enough to get to the moon, but that does not mean married bachelors exist or 2+2=5 and 4 at the same time. It also does not mean we can fly to the moon flapping our arms breathing space void.
 
Philetus

Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
I'd say the gospel is raw power. Can you imagine the power it took for Jesus to be made sin, to be made accursed, to be immersed into death and hades, and then rise again victorious over it?
Click to expand...

He emptied Himself and became a servant ... powerful indeed ... the power of love, not force.
 
Philetus

Philetus

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SaulToPaul said:
There are some married men in my office that are bachelors. :chuckle:
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:jawdrop:

You need to find a new office. :crackup:

What was this thread about, again?

OH, yeah, what Muz said: 'How God relates to this universe.'

No greater love ... no greater power!

P
 
Yorzhik

Yorzhik

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RobE said:
I did answer the question. I just didn't answer it in a way you could comprehend. Perhaps if you would answer your own question, then I might be able to know in advance what you wish the answer to be.
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Oh, don't worry, I can comprehend your nonsense well enough.

RobE continues:
Here's the question:

Yorzhik: The knowledge of that being wouldn't and couldn't have caused any of the events in its knowledge. I've said this all along (and Clete would agree). So do you know enough about the OV position to understand why we are OV despite saying this?​

Here's my answer:
RobE: Yes. We understand why you say this. God's necessary knowledge means that something necessarily causes the action in the future. I agree. The component which seems to elude the o.v. mindset is this: If that cause is your own will, then your will remains free. The only way that your position is satisified is if something other than your will is the cause of the action.​

Your objection to my answer was:

"Rob, you just went off on your own tangent." and "So if you ever get on topic I'll try and respond."​

Since my answer is 'off topic' perhaps you are able to provide me with the topic through your own answer. So, that being said, why are you determined to adhere to open theism despite believing God's foreknowledge doesn't cause future events?
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"something"? "something"? RobE, in this context the word "something" sends your statement into outer space. If you actually knew the OV position, you would not have been able to use that word in good conscience.

Also, you skipped what you volunteered for:
Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen.
 
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