ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[themuzicman]

I'm not going to play along with this, Muz, you all have given me three different incompatible answers, and the first two are clearly incorrect, and the last is Calvinism. I also was told that God is supremely able to do what he sets out to do, and in the area of salvation, this also is Calvinism.

So, you're a universalist. Great. I'm sure the world will be happy. (1 Tim 2:4)

So I now close the book on the Open View, this talk about presuppositions is a smoke screen, since these are the "good answers." I agree that Calvinism is a good answer, though...

Blessings,
Lee

Calvinism is a good answer for those who are hard determinists and believe that God is the cause of all evil. However, that's not what Scripture reveals.

I guess you've chosen the former.

Muz

 

[lee_merrill]

So, you're a universalist. Great. ... Calvinism is a good answer for those who are hard determinists and believe that God is the cause of all evil. However, that's not what Scripture reveals.

This is another tactic.

1) Claim the question has been answered

2) Deflect the discussion to problems in another view

3) Say the person isn't capable of discussing

4) Claim the person isn't listening anyway, so there's no point in discussing

5) Say that I'm posting strawmen, and don't understand the Open View

6 ...) There are a number of other tactics

The fact remains that the answers you called good answers are either absurd, or Calvinism, so I can close the book here. All that remains is a fine eulogy for OVT...

 

[lee_merrill]

I think we have a pin, here--as in wrestling.

 

[RobE]

You don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what I've said. You've demonstrated that repeatedly.

Muz

The statements have been self-evident.

Muz: And anyone who has read your response(that God gives grace to those who will be saved and refuses grace to those who will not be saved- John 6:44) understands that your answer is incompatible with...

Muz 5067: That's laughable. Go read John 6:44. If God doesn't draw him, then Judas ain't repenting. Period. ...​

No demonstration required!

Is there an option other than God causing future acts or God knowing future acts in the case of Judas' reprobation or Lee's remnant?

Did God refuse to extend grace to Judas Iscariot according to His own desire as you previously stated?

 

[Clete]

Sheesh, Clete...I feel sorry for your employees down at the warehouse.
Do they walk around on pins & needles?

No, not at all! I'm quite liked actually and am laughing for more than I am angry. But I have no respect whatsoever for the likes of e4e and several others that frequent this thread and so my ire is aroused far more here than is typical in any other context. I actually do make some attempt to hold my temper in check but the intentional dishonesty that pervades the posts like the one I was responding too just make my blood boil!

I hope my disdain for those who make no effort to have substantive discussions here hasn't made it impossible for you and I to continue having our discussions. I've been enjoying them very much.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I never used the term exhaustive foreknowledge and Clete is fighting against the wind.

The term exhaustive is actually somewhat irrelevant. To whatever extent God has knowledge of our actions, to that degree we are not free. That is to say that whichever actions are known to God in advance are not actions which are done freely.

It is to bad that Clete pits himself against God.

It is you and your stupidity and blasphemous doctrine that I pit myself against.

Clete has molded God into his own image.

You are an intentional liar.

I hold to no position concerning God that is not both Biblical and of sound reason. If you can show otherwise I invite you to do so, but we all know that you cannot and would not if you could.

How dare God know what Clete is up to. Clete's motto seems to be,"Look God, see what I choose to do for you."

This is so incredibly stupid I can hardly believe that you even said it.

You're so desperate for my doctrine to be wrong, you've gone mad!

God knows me better than I know myself and if I cannot choose to love God then I cannot love God at all. It isn't about being able to brag about my love for God, its about being able to love God in the first place.

Clete's theology is self centered and self aggrandizement.

You astound me with you inability to think clearly.

It's my theology that puts me in the hot seat for my own actions. Its my theology that makes things like being self centered and self aggrandizement meaningfully bad things.

He is more interested in what others think of his carnal legalism and morality than being humbled before the God he pretends to serve.

Carnal legalism? :rotfl:

Clete knows that God's foreknowledge does not prevent him from doing anything.

If it exists, His foreknowledge prevents me from doing otherwise, whatever that might be.

It is just a pretext to give Clete the opportunity to give himself a supposed carnal, moral standing so he can justify condemning others. He would make a good Roman Catholic Priest.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Roman Catholic Priest!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Hopefully this means that I've made it onto e4e's ignore list!

 

[elected4ever]

The term exhaustive is actually somewhat irrelevant. To whatever extent God has knowledge of our actions, to that degree we are not free. That is to say that whichever actions are known to God in advance are not actions which are done freely.

Now that is a really dump statement and you know it

It is you and your stupidity and blasphemous doctrine that I pit myself against.

Stupid and blasphemous am I. I am not the one telling God the conditions by which He must adhere too or He becomes a lier and would not believe in Him, That be you.

You are an intentional liar.

Prove it. Is that the best you can do. Revert to name calling but I should not be surprised. You don't wont God out of your neat little box that you have made for Him.

I hold to no position concerning God that is not both Biblical and of sound reason. If you can show otherwise I invite you to do so, but we all know that you cannot and would not if you could.

Yes you do and it would be a colosel wast of time to argue semantics with you. So your right I will not argue with you but only tell you the truth.

This is so incredibly stupid I can hardly believe that you even said it.

Is it? It is what your doctrine amounts to

You're so desperate for my doctrine to be wrong, you've gone mad!

No desperation on my part. My desire has nothing to do with anything. You simply come to some wrong conclusions . That effects you not me.

God knows me better than I know myself and if I cannot choose to love God then I cannot love God at all. It isn't about being able to brag about my love for God, its about being able to love God in the first place.

Fact is Clete, no man loves God unless He knows God and no man knows God unless He reveal Himself to that man. It is just something that your flesh is incapable off.

You astound me with you inability to think clearly.

You astound me with you lack of spiritual discernment.

It's my theology that puts me in the hot seat for my own actions. Its my theology that makes things like being self centered and self aggrandizement meaningfully bad things.

Being self centered and a self aggrandizer are meaningfully bad things regardless of your theology. Your theology just lends itself to that end and seems right to the flesh. It gives your flesh purpose even though it is dead to God.

Carnal legalism?

Yes that is what it is call when your carnal flesh proves its moralism. That way your carnal flesh finds its on justification in the work it performs.

If it exists, His foreknowledge prevents me from doing otherwise, whatever that might be.

:rotfl: This discussion proves otherwise, doesn't it.

Hopefully this means that I've made it onto e4e's ignore list!

Your hopes are in vain at this point.:crackup:

 

[Philetus]

What was this thread about again?

Oh, yeah.

So, E4e, is there anything about the future that God doesn't know?

Philetus

 

[lee_merrill]

What was this thread about again?

How God knows only a remnant will be saved?

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

If you say this is because God is able to carry this out, why yes, that is Calvinism, for repentance is from God's decision.

 

[patman]

How God knows only a remnant will be saved?

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

If you say this is because God is able to carry this out, why yes, that is Calvinism, for repentance is from God's decision.

Your view of repentance locks people out.

From someone who lost their faith:

i need to hear him say
“you and your friends can come in
your thoughts and that girl can come in
your parents and brothers are here
i let them in
who told you i wouldn’t let you all in?
you are my children”

God would let anyone in who asked. You make him into the hitler of the universe.

 

[patman]

I am sorry I have made you even more full of yourself than you already are.

As lone as you keep looking there is a hope for you

You have no idea what you are talking about. But of coarse I should not expect more from you.

They matter but I cannot save them. They must decide for themselves. OH my goodness that is Open Theism. I am not supposed to believe that according to you. You are such a :loser:

Well, you sure don't follow the direction laid out for you. What does that make you?

We all use logic to arrive at our conclusions. If you dont use logic , you don't think. It is not Clete's using logic that is the problem but some of the conclusions he arrives at. Actually I think Clete is an intelligent guy. His work shows a lot of effort.

You are a lot like me of 10 years ago. Just about the time you think that you have a handle on it and get comfortable God will slap you off you high horse.

E4E, just so the record is straight, you have no idea what I am like. But let's have a look at you, just from your last few posts you made.

You will not admit you were wrong. Let's look at your last example with me. You took a jab at Clete for using Logic, I called you on it, and you turn around and attempted to kick me around, too. Way to welcome rebuke...

Then you go on to say how useful logic is... without thanking me for pointing out the error so you correct yourself?? I thought I deserved a thanks... but I get called a smiley face with a 'L' shaped thumb and finger.

I didn't deserve that. You are "projecting" again...

I always tell S.V.er's I am happy they believe in freewill. But going back to the logic's thing, It isn't possible for it to exist when God is who he is and we are who we are.

Are you too stubborn to have an intelligent discussion with?

 

[Philetus]

How God knows only a remnant will be saved?

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

If you say this is because God is able to carry this out, why yes, that is Calvinism, for repentance is from God's decision.

Well, THE question with substance as well. I had given up hope, Lee. Glad to have the ol Lee back.

No, Calvinism says God is not only able but will in fact carry this (which He specifically declares He will do) AND EVERYTHING ELSE as well. Your struggle with Open Theism seems to be at the point after universalizing particulars in the classical approach; you can't deal with the freedom of God to sometimes do otherwise. It's a common struggle and not easily overcome, a fact that we Open Theists tend to forget. The residual thinking even trips us up at times. While the paradigm shift is logical and biblical, it is also experiential.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

How God knows only a remnant will be saved?

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

If you say this is because God is able to carry this out, why yes, that is Calvinism, for repentance is from God's decision.

Nope, again.

Grace is 'from God's decision"; repentance is from our own volition by grace through the Holy Spirit; by grace THROUGH faith.

Otherwise (Calvinism) God is doing our repenting for us???? I don't think so!!! And besides according to classical theism, I though God doesn't repent for anything. That's one of the absurdities we can't accept in Calvinism.

Philetus

 

[elected4ever]

E4E, just so the record is straight, you have no idea what I am like. But let's have a look at you, just from your last few posts you made.

You will not admit you were wrong. Let's look at your last example with me. You took a jab at Clete for using Logic, I called you on it, and you turn around and attempted to kick me around, too. Way to welcome rebuke...

Then you go on to say how useful logic is... without thanking me for pointing out the error so you correct yourself?? I thought I deserved a thanks... but I get called a smiley face with a 'L' shaped thumb and finger.

Right, I do not know you. I don't know Clete ether. I just know what you write.

I didn't deserve that. You are "projecting" again...

Sure you do. You agreed with Chete's error didn't you.

I always tell S.V.er's I am happy they believe in freewill. But going back to the logic's thing, It isn't possible for it to exist when God is who he is and we are who we are.

Are you saying it isn't possible for logic to exist?

Are you too stubborn to have an intelligent discussion with?

If you are saying that my disagreement with you on the subject of the relationship between foreknowledge and free will makes me unintelligent and unable to have a conversation and that makes me stubborn and disagreeable then perhaps your right. Get over it. It has nothing to do with intellect but perspective on the subject. I just view it differently than you and say so.

 

[Philetus]

... the subject of the relationship between foreknowledge and free will has to do with perspective. I just view it differently than you and say so.

That's fair.
But, are you chicken?

From your perspective ... Is there anything that God doesn't know about the future?
Just say so.

Philetus

 

[patman]

Right, I do not know you. I don't know Clete ether. I just know what you write.

Sure you do. You agreed with Chete's error didn't you.

Are you saying it isn't possible for logic to exist?

If you are saying that my disagreement with you on the subject of the relationship between foreknowledge and free will makes me unintelligent and unable to have a conversation and that makes me stubborn and disagreeable then perhaps your right. Get over it. It has nothing to do with intellect but perspective on the subject. I just view it differently than you and say so.

E4E, it doesn't make you unintelligent to disagree with me. It is your non-willingness to admit error, and bite people's heads off when they point it out to you, that make intelligent conversation hard with you. When ever someone disagrees with you it turns into a insult match. Those are fun sometimes, but hardly intellectual.

I agree with Clete's theology most of the time. But I never said no S.V.'er believes
in freewill. RobE, AMR, Lon, and in a weird way, even Lee say they believe it. Whenever Lon said he did, I remember thanking him for believing that.

I do think it is illogical to combine the creation's ability to have freewill with the creator who had absolute foreknowledge when he created.

That is a very pointed sentence. Freewill and foreknowledge may co-exist otherwise. But the second you place absolute foreknowledge with the creator, you suddenly have exhaustive predestination.

This world becomes a giant domino's set that he set up, he pushed over, and the illusion that they are falling on their own makes people think we are free. And in reality we are falling according to the pre-determined plan.

 

[patman]

Oh, in in that domino game, God will throw away all the pieces with dots numbered higher than 4 because the other's have too many dots (and he created the number of dots too).

 

[Philetus]

Oh, in in that domino game, God will throw away all the pieces with dots numbered higher than 4 because the other's have too many dots (and he created the number of dots too).

In that scenario God only created them in order to destroy them for His pleasure and glory. How un-Christ like.

Good illustration, Patman. I gotta get around to other threads and rep some other people more.

Philetus

 

[godrulz]

There is a difference between foreknowledge and supposed exhaustive definite foreknowledge, between libertarian free will and supposed compatibilistic 'free will'.

 

[patman]

In that scenario God only created them in order to destroy them for His pleasure and glory. How un-Christ like.

Good illustration, Patman. I gotta get around to other threads and rep some other people more.

Philetus

Thanks P. I gotta do the same for you.:thumb: