ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[elected4ever]

Oh, don't worry, I can comprehend your nonsense well enough.

RobE continues:

"something"? "something"? RobE, in this context the word "something" sends your statement into outer space. If you actually knew the OV position, you would not have been able to use that word in good conscience.

Also, you skipped what you volunteered for:
Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen.

So God can lie and man can derail God's plan and change the plan to suit himself. Man is therefore stronger, smarter and has more ability than God according to you?

 

[bybee]

does God prophecy wills or events....

does God prophecy wills or events....

Does God prophecy wills or events?

I wonder as I wander these forums and threads, do you ranting, canting, judgmental, Bible-thumping fundamentalists ever be quiet long enough to hear "the still small voice" of God calling you to your work? No doubt the stones you throw at each other from your theological Ivory Towers are meant to stamp out erroneous beliefs but it doe's not appear that you have really enlightened each other as to the possible errors of your ways. :bang:

 

[themuzicman]

Wow.. what a judgmental person. He doesn't even know what we do in our personal ministry lives, and yet he's willing to cast stones at us all.

Muz

 

[bybee]

"wow, what a judgmental person..."

"wow, what a judgmental person..."

Wow.. what a judgmental person. He doesn't even know what we do in our personal ministry lives, and yet he's willing to cast stones at us all.

Muz

I wonder about persons who take offense where none is intended. What I did cast was a few descriptive adjectives. Apparently, they hit home. I am reflecting what I am reading. Of course, you are surely overflowing with good works.

 

[godrulz]

So God can lie and man can derail God's plan and change the plan to suit himself. Man is therefore stronger, smarter and has more ability than God according to you?

That is not what he is saying...you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting it.

 

[themuzicman]

I wonder about persons who take offense where none is intended. What I did cast was a few descriptive adjectives. Apparently, they hit home. I am reflecting what I am reading. Of course, you are surely overflowing with good works.

The only thing you hit was the inaccurate stereotypical view of people who like to think about that the bible says.

You were clearly judgmental about a group of people about which you have zero knowledge.

Muz

 

[elected4ever]

That is not what he is saying...you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting it.

Did Yorzhik not say, "Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen."

What yorshik is saying is that God's foreknowledge causes all. That is an untrue statement. Sense we do know that God has foreknowledge then if the additions that he suggested does in fact make God a lier and man stronger than God. Therefore God does not posses foreknowledge. The OVer and the Calvinist believe that foreknowledge is causal. Which is also a false belief.

 

[bybee]

muzicman...

muzicman...

The only thing you hit was the inaccurate stereotypical view of people who like to think about that the bible says.

You were clearly judgmental about a group of people about which you have zero knowledge.

Muz

So are you admitting to being a judgmental bible thumping fundamentalist.? How do you know that I was referring to you? I'm a fundamentalist myself but feel no need to prove it to anyone. The Bible speaks to me as God wills it. No amount of someone else's rhetoric can change that. Now, how you apply to the activities of daily life what the Bible holds for you, is of interest to me. Maybe you know something that would be helpful to me and others. If debating every word of the Bible is helpful to you, then, I apologize for my harsh words. Lets be peaceful with one another. Blessings, bybee

 

[Philetus]

Hi bybee,

The worst thing about throwing stones at others from Ivory Towers is finding out your tower isn't as tall as you thought it was when they throw them back.

Nice apology. And you did it in only three posts. Most of us took weeks. Hey, E4E, have you ever apologized? If not do it now. If you have then I'm sorry; I don't remember ... so do it again.

Some of us have been going round and round with our buddies for a long time ... this is post ... what ... 7500 ... and we started in Part 1 no less. Feel free to just jump right in ... if your 'free willing' that is.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Lets be peaceful with one another. Blessings, bybee

So, is there anything that God does NOT know about the future ... like how long it will take for you to change your mind?

Philetus

 

[themuzicman]

So are you admitting to being a judgmental bible thumping fundamentalist.?

No, I'm saying that I'm an evangelical who doesn't at all exhibit the characteristics you've assigned to me.

How do you know that I was referring to you? I'm a fundamentalist myself but feel no need to prove it to anyone.

Umm.. Let's review. You insulted everyone here because they think about the bible for themselves, claiming that we don't do anything. A judgmental inaccuracy that you have yet to recant.

The Bible speaks to me as God wills it. No amount of someone else's rhetoric can change that. Now, how you apply to the activities of daily life what the Bible holds for you, is of interest to me.

Then what are you doing here?

Maybe you know something that would be helpful to me and others. If debating every word of the Bible is helpful to you, then, I apologize for my harsh words. Lets be peaceful with one another. Blessings, bybee

Understanding God's word is very important. It has provided you with many of the beliefs you hold, without you even knowing it.

Have a nice day.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

Did Yorzhik not say, "Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen."

What yorshik is saying is that God's foreknowledge causes all. That is an untrue statement. Sense we do know that God has foreknowledge then if the additions that he suggested does in fact make God a lier and man stronger than God. Therefore God does not posses foreknowledge. The OVer and the Calvinist believe that foreknowledge is causal. Which is also a false belief.

I'm an OVer and I don't think God's foreknowledge causes anything ... It doesn't exist ... at least not the way you define it.

The only certain foreknowledge God has is of what He determines He will in fact do and let the chips fly. lain:

1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen, because God will see that it does.

How does God know a remnant will be saved? He's the one who is going to save it!

Where's Lee?
Philetus

 

[themuzicman]

This is where I get the idea that Cavinists are deists. They are unable to grasp the concept of God actually participating in creation, bringing things about as He has declared them, without having fixed everything beforehand.

Muz

 

[Yorzhik]

Did Yorzhik not say, "Add "will not happen" or "possibly will not happen" to #3 and explain how it still makes sense.
1. Necessarily, any event that God foreknows will happen.
2. God foreknows x.
3. Therefore, x will happen."

What yorshik is saying is that God's foreknowledge causes all. That is an untrue statement. Sense we do know that God has foreknowledge then if the additions that he suggested does in fact make God a lier and man stronger than God. Therefore God does not posses foreknowledge. The OVer and the Calvinist believe that foreknowledge is causal. Which is also a false belief.

:rotfl: You should have your own show. It could be like America's Funniest Home Videos in talk format with E4E providing the spontaneous falls and crashes.

Go back and read all STP's posts concerning this syllogism :rotfl:

 

[Yorzhik]

I wonder as I wander these forums and threads, do you ranting, canting, judgmental, Bible-thumping fundamentalists ever be quiet long enough to hear "the still small voice" of God calling you to your work? No doubt the stones you throw at each other from your theological Ivory Towers are meant to stamp out erroneous beliefs but it doe's not appear that you have really enlightened each other as to the possible errors of your ways. :bang:

Errors? What errors?

 

[bybee]

change my mind?...

change my mind?...

So, is there anything that God does NOT know about the future ... like how long it will take for you to change your mind?

Philetus

As I have stated before, what God knows, we cannot know, but, what God does, we can know .certainly in the person of Jesus Christ and the words of the Bible. What is it in my mind that you wish me to change?

 

[Philetus]

As I have stated before, what God knows, we cannot know, but, what God does, we can know .certainly in the person of Jesus Christ and the words of the Bible. What is it in my mind that you wish me to change?

So, we can know what God does. Can we know God's intentions? Yes, as they are made know to us in scripture. Agreed?

My comment about changing your mind has nothing to do with what I want. I really don't wish you to change anything in your mind. My question can refer to something as mundane as changing your mind about your favorite color form say, green to blue, when you are sixty years old.

You say that we cannot know what God knows. Then why read the bible and pray? Why seek God's wisdom which must be based at least in a great part upon His exhaustive knowledge in any given situation. Why seek to KNOW His will?

The question is, does God Know in meticulous detail how you will respond to your knowledge (however limited or exact) of His will at some future time. And in the area of the more mundane, does God know from before creation (long before you even existed) whether you would choose red or yellow as your favorite color and then for whatever reason change it to purple when you turn sixty (if you make sixty).

The Open Theist says there are some things God doesn't know because they are as yet unknowable period! They do not now in the present exist as knowable facts.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

This is where I get the idea that Cavinists are deists. They are unable to grasp the concept of God actually participating in creation, bringing things about as He has declared them, without having fixed everything beforehand.

Muz

Instead of an I - Thou relationship with God, Calvinists have an I - it disposition where God is reduced to a subject/object whereby what God knows cannot be known by humans. Not much of a relationship, I would think.

Philetus

 

[bybee]

what God knows...

what God knows...

So, we can know what God does. Can we know God's intentions? Yes, as they are made know to us in scripture. Agreed?

My comment about changing your mind has nothing to do with what I want. I really don't wish you to change anything in your mind. My question can refer to something as mundane as changing your mind about your favorite color form say, green to blue, when you are sixty years old.

You say that we cannot know what God knows. Then why read the bible and pray? Why seek God's wisdom which must be based at least in a great part upon His exhaustive knowledge in any given situation. Why seek to KNOW His will?

The question is, does God Know in meticulous detail how you will respond to your knowledge (however limited or exact) of His will at some future time. And in the area of the more mundane, does God know from before creation (long before you even existed) whether you would choose red or yellow as your favorite color and then for whatever reason change it to purple when you turn sixty (if you make sixty).

The Open Theist says there are some things God doesn't know because they are as yet unknowable period! They do not now in the present exist as knowable facts.

Philetus

Yes, through scripture and good teachers we can know what God has given us to know. And absolutely, we must seek to know God's will for us. My intention in that remark is that what God know's is all encompassing and quite beyond our ability to comprehend in toto. God, for his own reason's, shares with us and each has his or her own portion. So we gather together to help each other when we stumble or fall as we surely do from time to time. Do you think it matters whether I choose red or blue?

 

[themuzicman]

Yes, through scripture and good teachers we can know what God has given us to know. And absolutely, we must seek to know God's will for us. My intention in that remark is that what God know's is all encompassing and quite beyond our ability to comprehend in toto. God, for his own reason's, shares with us and each has his or her own portion. So we gather together to help each other when we stumble or fall as we surely do from time to time. Do you think it matters whether I choose red or blue?

If you can't comprehend what God knows, then how can you claim that He knows the definite course of the future?

Muz