ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[themuzicman]

Romans 10:
19: But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20: But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21: But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11

1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.



25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.



Paul's entire Acts ministry to was gather up this remnant of Israel (which God foreknew) into the Body. The ascended Lord and the Spirit guided Paul throughout Acts and told him where to go & where not to go to gather this remnant.

That wasn't the entirety of Paul's ministry, as he went among both Jews and Gentiles throughout acts. It is true that there was a specific enlightening that God engaged in with respect to Jews. It's not clear that all those who were enlightened came to him, but there is definite evidence of a choosing a remnant, which God already knew He would do. Again, foreknowing that a group would exist doesn't' mean foreknowing the exact members of that group.

So, once we remove the presupposition of election, we see two things:

1) This is Jews we're speaking of, not Gentiles, and
2) The foreknowledge is that there would be Jews that came, but not which Jews.

Muz

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That wasn't the entirety of Paul's ministry, as he went among both Jews and Gentiles throughout acts. It is true that there was a specific enlightening that God engaged in with respect to Jews. It's not clear that all those who were enlightened came to him, but there is definite evidence of a choosing a remnant, which God already knew He would do. Again, foreknowing that a group would exist doesn't' mean foreknowing the exact members of that group.

So, once we remove the presupposition of election, we see two things:

1) This is Jews we're speaking of, not Gentiles, and
2) The foreknowledge is that there would be Jews that came, but not which Jews.

Muz

God blinded the Jews which he did not foreknow, and sent Paul to those Jews he did foreknow.

Paul's Acts ministry was to the Jew first , then the Greek (not alien gentiles). Paul's prison ministry to was to all men, including goyum Gentiles.

 

[godrulz]

1 Peter 1

1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Is this "corporate election" are did God have foreknowledge concerning these specific individuals in these specific areas?

It is corporate election, but this verse does refer to specific individuals in the first century because they were actually part of this group through faith. Notice it does not mention us future saints at New York, Boston, L.A., Germany, Canada, etc.

Foreknowledge as a word is rarely used in Scripture.

 

[themuzicman]

God blinded the Jews which he did not foreknow, and sent Paul to those Jews he did foreknow.

That's your imposition on the text. Nowhere does the bible say this.

Paul's Acts ministry was to the Jew first , then the Greek (not alien gentiles). Paul's prison ministry to was to all men, including goyum Gentiles.

I'd love to see some evidence, rather than your say so. It's pretty clear that Paul is peaching to followers of Artimes in Ephesis.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

God blinded the Jews which he did not foreknow, and sent Paul to those Jews he did foreknow.

Paul's Acts ministry was to the Jew first , then the Greek (not alien gentiles). Paul's prison ministry to was to all men, including goyum Gentiles.

These are assumptions you are reading back into the text. They do not arise from contextual exegesis. You are bordering on Calvinism's TULIP/elect vs non-elect nonsense (double predestination impugns the character of God and limits His love and the efficacy of His provision= arbitrary, not righteous).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

These are assumptions you are reading back into the text. They do not arise from contextual exegesis. You are bordering on Calvinism's TULIP/elect vs non-elect nonsense (double predestination impugns the character of God and limits His love and the efficacy of His provision= arbitrary, not righteous).

The non-elect were already blinded when Paul wrote. God did not cast away the Israelites, which he foreknew. How did God know which ones to blind?

 

[themuzicman]

The non-elect were already blinded when Paul wrote. God did not cast away the Israelites, which he foreknew. How did God know which ones to blind?

All Israelites were blinded. Not just the "non-elect". God simply opened the eyes of some through the preaching of the gospel.

Muz

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Implication: those he did not foreknow were already cast away.
Those he foreknew (such as Paul) were the elect.

 

[godrulz]

The non-elect were already blinded when Paul wrote. God did not cast away the Israelites, which he foreknew. How did God know which ones to blind?

Any saving or blinding of individuals is not divorced from their response or lack of response to His work in convincing and convicting all men of truth. Salvation is not caused nor coerced, but freely received or rejected (I Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16; Jn. 1:12).

 

[themuzicman]

2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Implication: those he did not foreknow were already cast away.
Those he foreknew (such as Paul) were the elect.

Get a modern translation:

Rom 11:2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew​

Notice that a remnant has come to be. It was not always there.

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.​

Notice that God's choice is also something that came to be.

6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;​

And, as those who came to be the remnant obtained, the rest hardened.

So, a modern translation clears this up.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Accurate translation in our English and contextual exegesis= sound interpretation/application.

Dated translation and proof texting= risky business.

 

[patman]

Your not that smart so don't flatter yourself. You just one of their groupies.:doh:

That coming from you gave me a nice ego boost!:thumb:

Not because I flatter myself, but that I am thankful that I do not share your views. Look what they have turned you into. I am glad I am not like you.

Like other S.V.er's, your witness is only useful to people like you. You are great at preaching to the choir, but really suck at reaching someone lost and confused. Yet you are blind to that handicap, too. You go around telling other Christians they are stupid because they disagree with you.

Best (or Worst) of all, the lost don't even mater to you. What good are they to you? God didn't elect them according to your view.

Do you even know the meaning of the word smart, E4E? It is the ability take a certain amount of information and process it logically then act upon the conclusion.

Didn't you just get on Clete for using logics? If I'm really not smart, I'd expect you to be more welcoming of me. After all, it seems as if you only want christians to be dumb and blind.:sigh:

Yes, there may be a lot of things wrong or bad about me. But at the end of the day I can rest easy knowing I am not like you (and that I reject your theology).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Accurate translation in our English and contextual exegesis= sound interpretation/application.

Dated translation and proof texting= risky business.

It's these flippant comments that make you a target for some.

My KJV NT comes from the greek manuscripts where God's holy words have been preserved, and the english used by my KJV is the most precise english there is.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Any saving or blinding of individuals is not divorced from their response or lack of response to His work in convincing and convicting all men of truth. Salvation is not caused nor coerced, but freely received or rejected (I Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16; Jn. 1:12).

Read the account of BarJesus in Acts 13, then reread Romans 11.

 

[lee_merrill]

In some contexts, God unconditionally pronouces judgment and brings it to pass. They are beyond mercy and receive justice.

In other contexts, there is a conditional element and the extension of mercy or judgment depends on their responses to His pronouncements.

I agree.

God can act, promise, fulfill as He sees fit in His wisdom. Sometimes things are not settled because man's contingent choices affects what is wise to do.

Well, fine, so then does God ever speak and then not act, or promise and not fulfill? This would be referring to unconditional statements and promises, certainly. Does God ever give such a word that does not come to pass or does not take place?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[elected4ever]

This comes from the guy who denies the Deity of Christ, an essential Christian truth. You do have some Calvinistic ideas.

You are a lier. I believe who Jesus is not some carried over RCC doctrine.

 

[elected4ever]

That coming from you gave me a nice ego boost!:thumb:

I am sorry I have made you even more full of yourself than you already are.

Not because I flatter myself, but that I am thankful that I do not share your views. Look what they have turned you into. I am glad I am not like you.

As lone as you keep looking there is a hope for you

Like other S.V.er's, your witness is only useful to people like you. You are great at preaching to the choir, but really suck at reaching someone lost and confused. Yet you are blind to that handicap, too. You go around telling other Christians they are stupid because they disagree with you.

You have no idea what you are talking about. But of coarse I should not expect more from you.

Best (or Worst) of all, the lost don't even mater to you. What good are they to you? God didn't elect them according to your view.

They matter but I cannot save them. They must decide for themselves. OH my goodness that is Open Theism. I am not supposed to believe that according to you. You are such a :loser:

Do you even know the meaning of the word smart, E4E? It is the ability take a certain amount of information and process it logically then act upon the conclusion.

Well, you sure don't follow the direction laid out for you. What does that make you?

Didn't you just get on Clete for using logics? If I'm really not smart, I'd expect you to be more welcoming of me. After all, it seems as if you only want christians to be dumb and blind.:sigh:

We all use logic to arrive at our conclusions. If you dont use logic , you don't think. It is not Clete's using logic that is the problem but some of the conclusions he arrives at. Actually I think Clete is an intelligent guy. His work shows a lot of effort.

Yes, there may be a lot of things wrong or bad about me. But at the end of the day I can rest easy knowing I am not like you (and that I reject your theology).

You are a lot like me of 10 years ago. Just about the time you think that you have a handle on it and get comfortable God will slap you off you high horse.

 

[godrulz]

It's these flippant comments that make you a target for some.

My KJV NT comes from the greek manuscripts where God's holy words have been preserved, and the english used by my KJV is the most precise english there is.

Are you KJV only?

Your assumptions are simplistic. You would be better off defending original language studies than an imperfect version that is no longer the best translation (not to mention it adds another step of archaic to modern English issues).

 

[godrulz]

You are a lier. I believe who Jesus is not some carried over RCC doctrine.

You deny the Deity of Christ in classical terms. This is a fact, not a lie. Whether it is true or not is another matter we have to settle.

You believe Jesus is not Almighty God, uncreated Creator. You deny the Trinity. You are closer to an Arian JW than a historical Christian.

RCC has nothing to do with it. They do happen to be right on their Christology, but not all doctrines.

 

[elected4ever]

You deny the Deity of Christ in classical terms. This is a fact, not a lie. Whether it is true or not is another matter we have to settle.

You believe Jesus is not Almighty God, uncreated Creator. You deny the Trinity. You are closer to an Arian JW than a historical Christian.

RCC has nothing to do with it. They do happen to be right on their Christology, but not all doctrines.

Do I deny the trinity? Yes indeed. Is the trinity an RCC doctrine? Yes indeed. Do I deny the deity of Christ? No way. It is evident you do not know what it is to be the the only begotten Son of God according to the flesh. If anything it is the trinity doctrine that denies the Son ship of Jesus.