AnnaB: "MANLY men!"
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
In the 50s and early 60s, it was pretty grim for you if you were noticeably different in any way. I got into athletics because I was small and smart, and didn't want to be a target. One of the things for which I'm grateful is that unusual kids are much less bullied than they used to be.
It happened fairly fast, I think. My older daughter is about ten years older than her sister. And she once told me she was concerned that Meg was hanging out with geeky kids. "She's an athlete, Dad; she doesn't have to do that."
It was no longer bad for one's popularity to associate with such kids by the time my younger girl was in school.
PureX
Well-known member
I've learned the lesson many times in my life that real strength doesn't need to nor desire to be displayed. I was always tough looking and clever enough not to be a target for the bullies. And I was not interested in bullying anyone else, so I managed to avoid violence in my younger days. But I've seen what all that macho violence does to young men enough to know that it's not ones who need to see strength displayed that are the truly strong ones. It's the ones that don't.
I had a friend named Tom in high school that played football, and was physically very strong. He was also a very affable guy who liked to laugh and joke with people and was not into bullying or intimidating anyone at all. A nice guy.
One day one of the other football players got the idea that my friend was someone he could bully because Tom didn't act tough. And so this guy started picking on Tom; calling him names (which Tom ignored) and then one day he pushed Tom's head into his metal locker. Big mistake. Tom said nothing at all. but physically picked the guy up in the air and threw him over a nearby stairwell railing. The guy fell to the concrete steps below and broke his arm. Tom was suspended and kicked off the football team. Needless to say no one EVER tried to pick on Tom again.
It's not the strutting cocks that are the tough ones. In fact, the reason they strut is because they are afraid of their own weakness, and they are afraid someone else will see it in them. So they mask it by strutting and playing tough. Bullies are really sissies at heart. The real tough guys don't need to strut and bully. They don't need to be violent to show themselves and the world how tough they are. But God help the fool that makes the mistake of assuming they are a convenient 'soft target'.
That preacher is a fool. He doesn't even know what real toughness is. Or what a real man is. And the people who go to his church and listen to his nonsense are just as stupid as he is. The blind leading the blind.
It's a weak man leading even weaker men with silly fantasies of how tough they all are.
I had a friend named Tom in high school that played football, and was physically very strong. He was also a very affable guy who liked to laugh and joke with people and was not into bullying or intimidating anyone at all. A nice guy.
One day one of the other football players got the idea that my friend was someone he could bully because Tom didn't act tough. And so this guy started picking on Tom; calling him names (which Tom ignored) and then one day he pushed Tom's head into his metal locker. Big mistake. Tom said nothing at all. but physically picked the guy up in the air and threw him over a nearby stairwell railing. The guy fell to the concrete steps below and broke his arm. Tom was suspended and kicked off the football team. Needless to say no one EVER tried to pick on Tom again.
It's not the strutting cocks that are the tough ones. In fact, the reason they strut is because they are afraid of their own weakness, and they are afraid someone else will see it in them. So they mask it by strutting and playing tough. Bullies are really sissies at heart. The real tough guys don't need to strut and bully. They don't need to be violent to show themselves and the world how tough they are. But God help the fool that makes the mistake of assuming they are a convenient 'soft target'.
That preacher is a fool. He doesn't even know what real toughness is. Or what a real man is. And the people who go to his church and listen to his nonsense are just as stupid as he is. The blind leading the blind.
It's a weak man leading even weaker men with silly fantasies of how tough they all are.
have you let him (her?) know that the homosexual lifestyle is an abomination to God and will lead to their eternal damnation?
Buzzword
New member
Just to add more variety to the discussion...
There is a genetic propensity on the male side of my father's family to occasionally shorten one's fuse to a nib and become enraged for something less than trivial.
My grandfather dealt with it by driving a school bus for thirty years, and by the time he retired to the family farm was the most charitable and personable man I've ever known.
My uncle dealt with it by having a heart attack in traffic and nearly dying when his car flipped.
My dad dealt with it by having a stroke when I was fourteen, and up until that point was a bomb waiting to go off at all times.
Of course, his rage didn't really go away, it just became more predictable since he could no longer work a full day without a nap, and the closer that nap-time got, the easier he'd be to set off.
I grew up tiptoeing around my dad and bonding with my mom, and it wasn't until age 16 that I stood up to my dad during one of his ragings (this particular time set off by me sitting and listening politely to his side of the argument like he'd asked, then asking that he return the favor for my side), and suddenly felt powerful.
I wasn't into athletics as a boy, more interested in learning amazing things about nature and reading books and playing piano and singing than running with the pack, especially since I was an introvert and both of my parents were musicians and encouraged me to sing solos in church and take piano lessons.
I tended to have exactly one friend at a time instead of a group of running buddies, and pour all my energy into that one friend, but childhood being childhood all of them moved away eventually.
I did get into a lot of fights, mostly because I couldn't let anything anyone said roll off my back.
I didn't have a solid sense of self, and so would lash out, which in recent years I've learned was a tendency that baffled my teachers because my grades were always top-notch and I was always polite and honest with adults, even when I was in trouble.
I wasn't able to deal with my own personal maybe-genetic anger until 7th grade (ironically the one year I actually played school football), when I finally just got pounded into the carpet by a much bigger guy....right in front of the principal's office.
The experience left me conscious of the fact that if I continued to lash out, eventually it would turn deadly, especially with all the drug trafficking and gang violence that happened in my hometown.
So starting at age fifteen, I began reaching out of my introvert-shell.
Especially when, disgruntled with the lackluster state of my school's mixed choir and still singing in my falsetto (even with a basso profundo speaking voice), I asked to be able to audition for the girls' choir, which was made up of a large number of girls I'd grown up with and several of whom had taken or were taking private voice lessons.
So I sang soprano at the end of junior high, and the quirkiness of the situation led several of my fellow choristers to open up to me as I'd never experienced before, being the introvert with a book in the corner all through elementary school.
I was neck-deep in the friendzone, but I didn't care at the time because I was getting female attention and actually forming some friendships which lasted through college.
As a result of that initial reaching, I started a process to grow into an other-end-of-the-spectrum extrovert, which has stayed with me.
I'm still not into athletics for the most part, though I enjoy watching football enough that I can be sociable at a party with a game on.
I've never been hunting, I've barely fired a weapon (thus my insecurity following this past Christmas), I was a virgin until 17, I've never killed a man or beast big enough to threaten me.......and I'm more likely to try to talk my way out of a fight than bumrush somebody.
I've personally never understood the idea of "manliness," especially since our culture long ago abandoned any standard rites for entering adulthood.
All we have now is basically "Well, you're x-age, you'd better do x-thing," which is just "you have the legal right to do so now, so you should consider it," whether it's driving, buying cigarettes, enlisting in the military, drinking alcohol, or renting a car.
So since we have no clear understanding (as opposed to cultures which have very clear demarcation lines between childhood and adulthood), how can we agree on any ideas of "masculinity," or should we, especially when the more barbaric gender roles for males (hunting, killing, frequently mating) are gradually and rightfully being abandoned in favor of an egalitarian system?
As a t-shirt I saw awhile back put it:
EDIT: On an unrelated note, this thread title has the theme from "Two and a Half Men" stuck in my head.
There is a genetic propensity on the male side of my father's family to occasionally shorten one's fuse to a nib and become enraged for something less than trivial.
My grandfather dealt with it by driving a school bus for thirty years, and by the time he retired to the family farm was the most charitable and personable man I've ever known.
My uncle dealt with it by having a heart attack in traffic and nearly dying when his car flipped.
My dad dealt with it by having a stroke when I was fourteen, and up until that point was a bomb waiting to go off at all times.
Of course, his rage didn't really go away, it just became more predictable since he could no longer work a full day without a nap, and the closer that nap-time got, the easier he'd be to set off.
I grew up tiptoeing around my dad and bonding with my mom, and it wasn't until age 16 that I stood up to my dad during one of his ragings (this particular time set off by me sitting and listening politely to his side of the argument like he'd asked, then asking that he return the favor for my side), and suddenly felt powerful.
I wasn't into athletics as a boy, more interested in learning amazing things about nature and reading books and playing piano and singing than running with the pack, especially since I was an introvert and both of my parents were musicians and encouraged me to sing solos in church and take piano lessons.
I tended to have exactly one friend at a time instead of a group of running buddies, and pour all my energy into that one friend, but childhood being childhood all of them moved away eventually.
I did get into a lot of fights, mostly because I couldn't let anything anyone said roll off my back.
I didn't have a solid sense of self, and so would lash out, which in recent years I've learned was a tendency that baffled my teachers because my grades were always top-notch and I was always polite and honest with adults, even when I was in trouble.
I wasn't able to deal with my own personal maybe-genetic anger until 7th grade (ironically the one year I actually played school football), when I finally just got pounded into the carpet by a much bigger guy....right in front of the principal's office.
The experience left me conscious of the fact that if I continued to lash out, eventually it would turn deadly, especially with all the drug trafficking and gang violence that happened in my hometown.
So starting at age fifteen, I began reaching out of my introvert-shell.
Especially when, disgruntled with the lackluster state of my school's mixed choir and still singing in my falsetto (even with a basso profundo speaking voice), I asked to be able to audition for the girls' choir, which was made up of a large number of girls I'd grown up with and several of whom had taken or were taking private voice lessons.
So I sang soprano at the end of junior high, and the quirkiness of the situation led several of my fellow choristers to open up to me as I'd never experienced before, being the introvert with a book in the corner all through elementary school.
I was neck-deep in the friendzone, but I didn't care at the time because I was getting female attention and actually forming some friendships which lasted through college.
As a result of that initial reaching, I started a process to grow into an other-end-of-the-spectrum extrovert, which has stayed with me.
I'm still not into athletics for the most part, though I enjoy watching football enough that I can be sociable at a party with a game on.
I've never been hunting, I've barely fired a weapon (thus my insecurity following this past Christmas), I was a virgin until 17, I've never killed a man or beast big enough to threaten me.......and I'm more likely to try to talk my way out of a fight than bumrush somebody.
I've personally never understood the idea of "manliness," especially since our culture long ago abandoned any standard rites for entering adulthood.
All we have now is basically "Well, you're x-age, you'd better do x-thing," which is just "you have the legal right to do so now, so you should consider it," whether it's driving, buying cigarettes, enlisting in the military, drinking alcohol, or renting a car.
So since we have no clear understanding (as opposed to cultures which have very clear demarcation lines between childhood and adulthood), how can we agree on any ideas of "masculinity," or should we, especially when the more barbaric gender roles for males (hunting, killing, frequently mating) are gradually and rightfully being abandoned in favor of an egalitarian system?
As a t-shirt I saw awhile back put it:
EDIT: On an unrelated note, this thread title has the theme from "Two and a Half Men" stuck in my head.
I once read an article about a football player, who was described as "so tough he orders quiche at a sports bar."
Lots of truth in that one.
Lots of truth in that one.
PureX
Well-known member
I think the key to becoming a "man" resides in the willingness and ability to face one's self, honestly, and then deal with what you see, accordingly. I did not do this until I was almost 40 years old, so I didn't feel or see myself as a man until then.
I know some men who managed to do this in their 20s (not many, though) and some in their 30s. And I know a fair number of men who have never done it and probably never will. They will remain overgrown children all their lives.
For women I think it's different. For women I think it has to do with the idea and experience of motherhood. Not just in terms of becoming a mother, but also in terms of making peace with not being a mother if that's what life dictates. I think women who don't deal with the existential obligations of motherhood never really grow up. They remain girls all their lives.
I also think those who have matured properly and become men and women know what I'm talking about. While those who have not can only pretend to know, or respond with childish retorts.
I know some men who managed to do this in their 20s (not many, though) and some in their 30s. And I know a fair number of men who have never done it and probably never will. They will remain overgrown children all their lives.
For women I think it's different. For women I think it has to do with the idea and experience of motherhood. Not just in terms of becoming a mother, but also in terms of making peace with not being a mother if that's what life dictates. I think women who don't deal with the existential obligations of motherhood never really grow up. They remain girls all their lives.
I also think those who have matured properly and become men and women know what I'm talking about. While those who have not can only pretend to know, or respond with childish retorts.
Selaphiel
Well-known member
I like that one.
I can't help but be suspicious about the guys that focus so hard on what a man must be. Reminds me of dogs, I find that it is usually the tiny dogs that bark and act out the most.
So many of these ideas of masculinity are culturally contingent as well.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Love it!
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Thanks for bringing me back to this, Lon. 
Bumping the thread in the hope that it won't get pruned.
Bumping the thread in the hope that it won't get pruned.
The preacher who punched that kid should have been arrested for assault and battery and defrocked . This kind of hateful , violent behavior as well as fostering of intolerance and bigotry against gays should never be allowed in a supposedly "civilized " country like America .
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
you must be unfamiliar with terriers - my sister has a few, and they're a yappy bunch
they're also absolutely fearless, bred to follow rats and such down into their dens
tough keeping them away from the mink up here - another fearless critter
you guys really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you? :nono:
you really should watch a cockfight sometime
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The Berean
Well-known member
Speaking of the traditional men this book has a lot good insight and practical wisdom. I'm reading it right now.
http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Marri...137055?ie=UTF8&qid=&ref_=tmm_pap_swatch_0&sr=
http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Marri...137055?ie=UTF8&qid=&ref_=tmm_pap_swatch_0&sr=
Lon
Well-known member
Picking up the Manly mantle again
Picking up the Manly mantle again
Or "back to the good ol' caveman days"
I've heard a few male/female jokes and humorous anecdotes and perhaps some are funny, some are not, and/or the difference to some people. I tend to value humor pointed at our gender roles and found this particular funny, simply because women must/necessarily use more words in a day than men. Why? I don't know, but humor in this case points to a genuine difference between gender roles and so I appreciate it as being funny. My wife does need to use up her words. In this instance, I think it was funny simply because you provided the mechanism for the difference.
I appreciate, given actual frictions, some humor might be too close for humor's sake. Or, that somethings are just not funny without reaction to it, whichever the case may be. Cavemen are a bit insensitive. I sometimes fall into that category, as you well know.
Picking up the Manly mantle again
Or "back to the good ol' caveman days"
I've heard a few male/female jokes and humorous anecdotes and perhaps some are funny, some are not, and/or the difference to some people. I tend to value humor pointed at our gender roles and found this particular funny, simply because women must/necessarily use more words in a day than men. Why? I don't know, but humor in this case points to a genuine difference between gender roles and so I appreciate it as being funny. My wife does need to use up her words. In this instance, I think it was funny simply because you provided the mechanism for the difference.
I appreciate, given actual frictions, some humor might be too close for humor's sake. Or, that somethings are just not funny without reaction to it, whichever the case may be. Cavemen are a bit insensitive. I sometimes fall into that category, as you well know.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Sure, I'd agree that some jokes that point out the differences between men and women are funny and some aren't. Hopefully the people you're joking with have a pretty good idea of where the line is.
And yes, there can be that difference of words between men and women, although again, that's a stereotype, not a rule, I'm sure we all know exceptions to the stereotype in both genders. A long time ago, I posted one of the funniest things I've read about those differences. It was attributed to Dave Barry although I don't know for sure that he wrote it. I haven't found an authoritative source.
Here it is again - and in rereading it, I was trying really hard not to laugh out loud because I'm in a public place at the moment. :chuckle:
Spoiler
We've had our differences, Lon. But I appreciate your effort - even when I'm disagreeing. Vehemently.