AnnaB: "MANLY men!"

[Lon]

I'm talking about this, Lon:

"Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok?"

Guys are guys: We read each other differently than actual on stuff like this, especially with "Man up." As such, I don't 'think' we read it as literal, probably forgetting that a woman might. That said, if he literally means it, that the child should be punched? No, I'm against that and against a preacher meaning this literally. Macho shouldn't mean random acts of physical contact. I'm not into punching guys in the arm either though, so I can't speak for all males nor would I try to emasculate (take away any of their God-given masculinity).

Home Improvement

[One guy on TOL] saw nothing wrong with a different pastor who claimed he'd full on punched a kid in the chest. Maybe aCW doesn't see a problem with breaking a kid's wrist either.

These are men you'd want to see preaching to a congregation?

My father and father-in-law are both more masculine than I and have sensibilities along that line I don't always get. I don't think they'd see anything wrong with this either. For me, it isn't right, but Jesus took a whip into the temple and cleansed it. I can't be less masculine that He without it becoming a Spiritual problem. I guess I'm saying I share your concern but perhaps without the condemnation. I'm still often left at the back of the line trying to figure these things out, long after others have made judgment calls and moved on to other subjects. I hope and pray that doesn't make me limp-wristed, but merely overtly analytical and perhaps behind the times.

Okay, trying this again.

I realize that men relate to each other differently when in an all-male environment, that there's a lot of teasing that goes on that isn't meant or taken seriously. I get that. But that isn't what's going on in these two instances. Both of these men approving of physical violence towards others were preaching to congregations. There's no 'guys being guys' context there. Also, the 'guys will be guys' thing all too often goes off track and veers into the abusive, and to hear that sort of thing advocated under the guise of preaching is indefensible. There's nothing there to indicate that either one didn't literally mean it either, and I think their congregations took them literally.

Sometimes a caveman is just a caveman, grunts and all. "Should there be cavemen today?" :idunno:

And it shouldn't be emasculating to any man to realize that his masculinity doesn't have to be propped up by macho posturing.

What if he calls me a girl, though? What does a girl do when she's called a "Tomboy?"

In my opinion, advocating breaking a "limp wrist" or punching a boy in the chest (not the arm Lon, the chest) isn't an indication of masculinity but an indication of someone with a mean streak, a ego problem, or a god complex - maybe all of those things combined and more I haven't thought of.

Well I was thinking "dumb as a brick" or "Cavemanish." Not sure if that was the combination.

So many times I've seen Christians justify their meanness because Jesus took a whip and cleared the temple area. I think that often makes other Christians hesitate and that's long enough for them to decide that maybe that meanness is justified, so they stand aside and say nothing. In actuality, standing against bullying is a very masculine thing for a man to do, and it should go without saying that it ought to be a very Christian thing to do as well.

Not for me, there is a difference between catching a guy hitting a kid and him talking about it later. Discussion atf is a bit late

I wonder how much meanness comes about because a father's own ego is threatened by a son who doesn't measure up on dad's masculinity scale. The boy suffers because of the father's ego, the father's insecurities and by God (literally) that father is going to make that boy pay the price.

Some of that, for sure. It is complicated, but those who aren't this 3 dimensional in their thinking, are doing it "Monkey/Gorilla/Caveman see, Monkey/Gorilla/Caveman do or doing what 'worked for them' etc. etc.

I think I covered most of this in my above, but that last line made me chuckle. Women are expected to "man up" every day of their lives, and to do it without fanfare.

:think: Mom never told me to get my "girl-on" so this is a bit of a revelation to me. Maybe "try being more sensitive" is the equivalent. :idunno:

 

[annabenedetti]

I guess I'd start by looking again at the question you didn't answer:

[One guy on TOL] saw nothing wrong with a different pastor who claimed he'd full on punched a kid in the chest. Maybe aCW doesn't see a problem with breaking a kid's wrist either.

These are men you'd want to see preaching to a congregation?

1. Do youthink it was acceptable for those two preachers to advocate physical violence (the punch to the chest that "crumpled" the kid and advice to dads to break a boy's "limp wrist" and while he's at it, punch him too)?

2. Do you see that behavior as a necessary component of masculinity? Of God-given male parental or pastoral authority?

Sometimes a caveman is just a caveman, grunts and all. "Should there be cavemen today?" :idunno:

Maybe you could define what "caveman" means to you.

What if he calls me a girl, though? What does a girl do when she's called a "Tomboy?"

How does a father teach his son self-control if he has none himself?

Not for me, there is a difference between catching a guy hitting a kid and him talking about it later. Discussion atf is a bit late

It's not too late to discuss what happened and formulate a definitive opinion on the rightness or wrongness of it.

:think: Mom never told me to get my "girl-on" so this is a bit of a revelation to me. Maybe "try being more sensitive" is the equivalent. :idunno:

My point was that some men (not generalizing to all men, I have a genuine appreciation for and admiration of good men) have no idea how strong women can be.

A woman's strength is hidden from some men because of her femininity and because of their egocentric inability to recognize her worth.

 

[Morpheus]

Lived quite a while. When very young in the 50s I was bullied by a couple cousins and a couple neighbor boys. A neighbor lady told me later that I started out as a gentle, loving boy and more vicious kids just smelled it. Yet later, in my teens, I grew and became extremely athletic. By the second week of my freshman year in high school, when 3 seniors tried to bully me to take my money, I was strong enough to throw 1 down the nearby stairs and chase off the others. But defense is one thing, but in 1960s male, high school culture defense quickly turned to bullying myself.

As I looked back over those years later in life I truly regretted abusing others, often for just being weak. Raising my own kids I used those experiences to break a cycle of family violence. It was obvious to me that violence only spawns more violence, and violence against kids will only create another generation of abusers. The old male culture of (as I used to describe it) shooters and targets has to go the way of the other dinosaurs. When some guy says, "I was hit and it never hurt me", they are losing. They are damaged; they just may not realize it.

 

[annabenedetti]

Lived quite a while. When very young in the 50s I was bullied by a couple cousins and a couple neighbor boys. A neighbor lady told me later that I started out as a gentle, loving boy and more vicious kids just smelled it. Yet later, in my teens, I grew and became extremely athletic. By the second week of my freshman year in high school, when 3 seniors tried to bully me to take my money, I was strong enough to throw 1 down the nearby stairs and chase off the others. But defense is one thing, but in 1960s male, high school culture defense quickly turned to bullying myself.

As I looked back over those years later in life I truly regretted abusing others, often for just being weak. Raising my own kids I used those experiences to break a cycle of family violence. It was obvious to me that violence only spawns more violence, and violence against kids will only create another generation of abusers. The old male culture of (as I used to describe it) shooters and targets has to go the way of the other dinosaurs. When some guy says, "I was hit and it never hurt me", they are losing. They are damaged; they just may not realize it.

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. I have absolutely no problem with self defense, so I'll take this opportunity to clarify that. And I'm glad that you raised your kids with the wisdom gained from your experience.

 

[patrick jane]

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. I have absolutely no problem with self defense, so I'll take this opportunity to clarify that. And I'm glad that you raised your kids with the wisdom gained from your experience.

anna, what about girlymen ? jk. i do think more and more tolerance, to the point of encouragement, with tv shows, movies, music, etc. acceptance and approval. it just wasn't like that in HS in the mid 80s. my cousin is gay. i don't get it, but he says he didn't choose it. it's happened throughout history, i just don't believe in the way it's promoted and glorified. straight people don't have parades strutting around kissing and flashing. oh wait, mardi gras, st. patrick's day, 4th of . . . ok, bad example. you know what i mean annabenedetti. i like that name atrol:

 

[Morpheus]

My point was that some men (not generalizing to all men, I have a genuine appreciation for and admiration of good men) have no idea how strong women can be.

A woman's strength is hidden from some men because of her femininity and because of their egocentric inability to recognize her worth.

I read this after publishing my last post. With the last post being said, nobody has ever considered me weak or unmasculine since my very early years. And striking a kid, or yelling at them for that matter, is abuse. People revert to such brutish behaviors because they haven't the self-control to manage their anger. And if they claim that they don't hit out of anger they are either foolish, or more likely lieing.

More to your final point that I included above, I have always admired the strength of women, especially the strength of character it takes to stand up against a physically stronger adversary. My wife and I have about as good a marriage as anyone I have ever known. But in 42 years of marriage there will be times where two people won't see eye to eye. To be honest she is the only person on the planet that truly can scare me. Not that she does, but she is the only person that has the power to hurt me. Maybe that's what kept me in line when we were younger.

 

[annabenedetti]

anna, what about girlymen ? jk. i do think more and more tolerance, to the point of encouragement, with tv shows, movies, music, etc. acceptance and approval. it just wasn't like that in HS in the mid 80s. my cousin is gay. i don't get it, but he says he didn't choose it. it's happened throughout history, i just don't believe in the way it's promoted and glorified. straight people don't have parades strutting around kissing and flashing. oh wait, mardi gras, st. patrick's day, 4th of . . . ok, bad example. you know what i mean annabenedetti. i like that name atrol:

I know someone who's gay, and whose parents knew it from the time he was a small boy. They would never have tried to 'beat the gay out of him.' There are boys who are straight but just are more gentle in nature and they get abused for being that way - and that's the part that comes from the father's ego and insecurity. No boy of his is going to be gentle, no way no how, he's going to teach that boy how to "man-up."

As for it not being that way 20 or more years ago, I'd think it was fear that kept them silent. After all, what would happen to them if they came out? There are posters here at TOL who openly say they should be executed. And as for the parades - yeah, if you hadn't said Mardi Gras, I would've. And thanks, I'm glad you like that name.

 

[annabenedetti]

I read this after publishing my last post. With the last post being said, nobody has ever considered me weak or unmasculine since my very early years. And striking a kid, or yelling at them for that matter, is abuse. People revert to such brutish behaviors because they haven't the self-control to manage their anger. And if they claim that they don't hit out of anger they are either foolish, or more likely lieing.

That's basically what I've been trying to get across in my conversation with Lon. There's no lack of masculinity in self control. There's no lack of masculinity in finding a way other than physical violence to assert parental or pastoral authority.

More to your final point that I included above, I have always admired the strength of women, especially the strength of character it takes to stand up against a physically stronger adversary. My wife and I have about as good a marriage as anyone I have ever known. But in 42 years of marriage there will be times where two people won't see eye to eye. To be honest she is the only person on the planet that truly can scare me. Not that she does, but she is the only person that has the power to hurt me. Maybe that's what kept me in line when we were younger.

Hell hath no power... But seriously, men as heroes are celebrated. Women are no less heroes, they're just very often unsung. I know some women in my life who leave me awestruck by their strength.

You're one of the good ones, Morpheus. You and your wife have something special.

 

[Lon]

I guess I'd start by looking again at the question you didn't answer:

1. Do youthink it was acceptable for those two preachers to advocate physical violence (the punch to the chest that "crumpled" the kid and advice to dads to break a boy's "limp wrist" and while he's at it, punch him too)?

No, BUT I didn't understand Jesus needing to use a whip in the temple, or "Spare the rod, spoil the child" either. I try to get beyond my initial reactions, but that isn't exactly cavemanish.

2. Do you see that behavior as a necessary component of masculinity? Of God-given male parental or pastoral authority?

The problem with sin is that it 'requires' that we be angry but not sin. God wasn't angry with His creation until sin, and He is an example of righteous masculinity for us, regarding the matter. I do however see a difference between random violence and purposeful acts of violence. War is necessary, by example. Policemen/women are necessary.

Maybe you could define what "caveman" means to you.

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it is also true that some men aren't very 3 dimensional in their behavior. Men and women, I do think, are wired differently, especially on the extremes. You talk a little later about women who are strong and women who are feminine. I think this is true of guys. Both of my brothers don't think in terms of femininity and I'm not certain they can. Such requires a LOT of contemplation that I don't think a good half or so, of men actually have a capacity for. They both, however, exercise self-control, so on some of this, I think there is a bit of crossing paths over this concern. I'm fairly sure both would call these two pastors on this behavior. We might even hear these pastors step away from these statements as being incomplete and faulty. I'd like to think if they chimed in on a thread like this, they'd say punching a kid or breaking a wrist is wrong too. Guys 'talk' the macho talk but we often recant when called on it. I'd hope these two guys would quickly recant.

How does a father teach his son self-control if he has none himself?

If a cop shoots a suspect, is that self-control? If a father/mother spanks a child immediately upon pulling them away from the hot stove, is that a lack of self-control? If Jesus takes a whip and chases crooks from His temple, is that self-control? I think we have to address what self-control is on this particular. The one pastor, who said he punched the kid, 'seemed' to have had self-control over the matter because he gave cognizant reasons for why the kid needed (in his mind) to be punched. Do I think that he was right? No. I don't want anybody punching my kid. I'm skeptical in even hearing this pastor's story.

It's not too late to discuss what happened and formulate a definitive opinion on the rightness or wrongness of it.

Yes, agreed. I'm just saying that I'm not as up in arms about a quirky weird story as I would be in actually seeing a pastor punch a kid. I'd assume 'if' this happened, there was a LOT more that went on that we aren't seeing. The first thing I'd do, would be to stop a physical altercation. Maybe the pastor is yet trying to justify something he'd done, by talking about it.

When I was a kid, we were over in the neighbor's bushes. They came out and spanked us. My mom was up in arms about it, but I can see the neighbor's side of it: We were ruining their bushes. It had not even occurred to us as kids that we were damaging somebody else's property.
It was a two-way lawsuit waiting to happen, but people didn't sue over these things like they do now.

My point was that some men (not generalizing to all men, I have a genuine appreciation for and admiration of good men) have no idea how strong women can be.

I understood And agree.

A woman's strength is hidden from some men because of her femininity and because of their egocentric inability to recognize her worth.

I see this, but it is also true that some girls are a bit more than others. At least I know it is true of some guys. Both of my brothers aren't 'sensitive' in the same way I am. A lot of guys are Tim Taylors and some of us are Al Borlands.

 

[Lon]

More to your final point that I included above, I have always admired the strength of women, especially the strength of character it takes to stand up against a physically stronger adversary. My wife and I have about as good a marriage as anyone I have ever known. But in 42 years of marriage there will be times where two people won't see eye to eye. To be honest she is the only person on the planet that truly can scare me. Not that she does, but she is the only person that has the power to hurt me. Maybe that's what kept me in line when we were younger.

My mother and sister are of this variety. My wife and mother-in-law are not. They are both delicate and beautiful. My mother and sister are both strong and beautiful. Again, it seems two types to me. I'm not sure either one of them is wrong or preferred. There seems to be both represented in scripture. I mean, I'd have HATED to be Sisera!

 

[annabenedetti]

No, BUT I didn't understand Jesus needing to use a whip in the temple, or "Spare the rod, spoil the child" either. I try to get beyond my initial reactions, but that isn't exactly cavemanish.

We're not divine, we're human. No offense, but the Jesus in the temple example is hauled out anytime a Christian wants to defend violence on the part of Christians.

The problem with sin is that it 'requires' that we be angry but not sin. God wasn't angry with His creation until sin, and He is an example of righteous masculinity for us, regarding the matter.

Why are we required to be angry? I don't get that. And God is a merciful God, one who desires all of us to come to Him. I don't ascribe to the idea of "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

I do however see a difference between random violence and purposeful acts of violence. War is necessary, by example. Policemen/women are necessary.

But we're talking about parents and pastors. And their violence (or talk of it) isn't random, it's purposeful.

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it is also true that some men aren't very 3 dimensional in their behavior. Men and women, I do think, are wired differently, especially on the extremes. You talk a little later about women who are strong and women who are feminine. I think this is true of guys. Both of my brothers don't think in terms of femininity and I'm not certain they can. Such requires a LOT of contemplation that I don't think a good half or so, of men actually have a capacity for. They both, however, exercise self-control, so on some of this, I think there is a bit of crossing paths over this concern. I'm fairly sure both would call these two pastors on this behavior.

Vive la différence between men and women. I'm not arguing to change that, I appreciate the differences. I don't expect a man to always look at things the way I do, or necessarily even always be able to understand me. Heck, I don't even understand myself sometimes.

We might even hear these pastors step away from these statements as being incomplete and faulty. I'd like to think if they chimed in on a thread like this, they'd say punching a kid or breaking a wrist is wrong too. Guys 'talk' the macho talk but we often recant when called on it. I'd hope these two guys would quickly recant.

I think they did, but I did read that when the video about the pastor punching the kid went viral, the church pulled all the sermon videos off their website. That pastor also said that in the original sermon, he went on to say that what he did was wrong, but I listened to the sermon(it's on youtube) after the point at which he tells the story and I didn't hear him say anywhere that he thought what he did was wrong. And in fact, when he said "There's times that that might be needed," the congregation laughs. Look at what he's responsible for teaching that congregation.

If a cop shoots a suspect, is that self-control? If a father/mother spanks a child immediately upon pulling them away from the hot stove, is that a lack of self-control? If Jesus takes a whip and chases crooks from His temple, is that self-control? I think we have to address what self-control is on this particular. The one pastor, who said he punched the kid, 'seemed' to have had self-control over the matter because he gave cognizant reasons for why the kid needed (in his mind) to be punched. Do I think that he was right? No. I don't want anybody punching my kid. I'm skeptical in even hearing this pastor's story.

Yes, agreed. I'm just saying that I'm not as up in arms about a quirky weird story as I would be in actually seeing a pastor punch a kid. I'd assume 'if' this happened, there was a LOT more that went on that we aren't seeing. The first thing I'd do, would be to stop a physical altercation. Maybe the pastor is yet trying to justify something he'd done, by talking about it.

I'm not up in arms, I'm arguing that what the pastor did was wrong. And if he'd done it to my son, I'd have pressed charges so that he wouldn't do it again (hopefully) to someone else's son. There are posters here who see nothing wrong with it. The way the pastor told it (and have you seen the video?) it seems to me that the pastor was trying to find some sort of Godly justification for what he'd done. At least you don't think he was right, and I'm glad to hear it.

When I was a kid, we were over in the neighbor's bushes. They came out and spanked us. My mom was up in arms about it, but I can see the neighbor's side of it: We were ruining their bushes. It had not even occurred to us as kids that we were damaging somebody else's property.
It was a two-way lawsuit waiting to happen, but people didn't sue over these things like they do now.

I'm with your mom on this one.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Lived quite a while. When very young in the 50s I was bullied by a couple cousins and a couple neighbor boys. A neighbor lady told me later that I started out as a gentle, loving boy and more vicious kids just smelled it. Yet later, in my teens, I grew and became extremely athletic. By the second week of my freshman year in high school, when 3 seniors tried to bully me to take my money, I was strong enough to throw 1 down the nearby stairs and chase off the others. But defense is one thing, but in 1960s male, high school culture defense quickly turned to bullying myself.

Were you targeted after that? Ill bet a lot of it stopped after that.

As I looked back over those years later in life I truly regretted abusing others, often for just being weak. .

Abuse and defending yourself aren't the same thing.

 

[Lon]

We're not divine, we're human. No offense, but the Jesus in the temple example is hauled out anytime a Christian wants to defend violence on the part of Christians.

Agree. There are a few "Do as I say, not as I do" directives in scripture. Just because something happened doesn't mean we can go and do likewise ESPECIALLY when scripture calls us to be gentle and peaceful.

Why are we required to be angry? I don't get that. And God is a merciful God, one who desires all of us to come to Him. I don't ascribe to the idea of "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

Ephesians 4:26

But we're talking about parents and pastors. And their violence (or talk of it) isn't random, it's purposeful.

I think that issue became clouded between the actual event and the sermon.

Vive la différence between men and women. I'm not arguing to change that, I appreciate the differences. I don't expect a man to always look at things the way I do, or necessarily even always be able to understand me. Heck, I don't even understand myself sometimes.

I'm in that club too.

I think they did, but I did read that when the video about the pastor punching the kid went viral, the church pulled all the sermon videos off their website. That pastor also said that in the original sermon, he went on to say that what he did was wrong, but I listened to the sermon(it's on youtube) after the point at which he tells the story and I didn't hear him say anywhere that he thought what he did was wrong. And in fact, when he said "There's times that that might be needed," the congregation laughs. Look at what he's responsible for teaching that congregation.

That they pulled it says something about the church. That fact accentuates your concern.

I'm not up in arms, I'm arguing that what the pastor did was wrong. And if he'd done it to my son, I'd have pressed charges so that he wouldn't do it again (hopefully) to someone else's son. There are posters here who see nothing wrong with it. The way the pastor told it (and have you seen the video?) it seems to me that the pastor was trying to find some sort of Godly justification for what he'd done. At least you don't think he was right, and I'm glad to hear it

I'm with your mom on this one.

1 Corinthians 6:1ff has me steering away from anything but a complaint most of the time.

 

[Angel4Truth]

What does a girl do when she's called a "Tomboy?"

Sock 'em one.

 

[Lon]

Sock 'em one.

And now we are full circle!

 

[The Barbarian]

Lived quite a while. When very young in the 50s I was bullied by a couple cousins and a couple neighbor boys. A neighbor lady told me later that I started out as a gentle, loving boy and more vicious kids just smelled it. Yet later, in my teens, I grew and became extremely athletic. By the second week of my freshman year in high school, when 3 seniors tried to bully me to take my money, I was strong enough to throw 1 down the nearby stairs and chase off the others. But defense is one thing, but in 1960s male, high school culture defense quickly turned to bullying myself.

I was small when I was in grade school, and until high school, was occasionally targeted by bullies. Then I grew, got into athletics, and was surprised and pleased how liberating it was to not be afraid.

It's funny how one's father persists in one's head forever; I always thought that I could never be the man he was, and eventually, I became just that.

Had a daughter who was a complete tomboy until she was in her mid 20s, found a guy got married and had a daughter herself. I didn't mind that, as much as I would have minded my sons being less "manly."

 

[patrick jane]

I was small when I was in grade school, and until high school, was occasionally targeted by bullies. Then I grew, got into athletics, and was surprised and pleased how liberating it was to not be afraid.

It's funny how one's father persists in one's head forever; I always thought that I could never be the man he was, and eventually, I became just that.

Had a daughter who was a complete tomboy until she was in her mid 20s, found a guy got married and had a daughter herself. I didn't mind that, as much as I would have minded my sons being less "manly."

when i think of a barbarian, i never picture a woman. i wonder what they did to an unmanly guy in the barbarian days ? - atrol:

 

[Morpheus]

when i think of a barbarian, i never picture a woman. i wonder what they did to an unmanly guy in the barbarian days ? - atrol:

Same thing I did in my barbarian days...abused him (bullied). That is still the problem with men running the world. Power leads to abuse of the weaker in a male dominated society. It doesn't matter whether that power is physical, political, monetary, intellectual or even job position. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The exceptions are rare even today. What is sad is that even more and more women are falling into the same trap each generation.

 

[JosephR]

back when the derricks were made of wood, and the men were made of iron..

before a feminized world...when a boy was expected to become a man..

thats the fantasy world this man was talking of,that we forgot.

 

[bybee]

back when the derricks were made of wood, and the men were made of iron..

before a feminized world...when a boy was expected to become a man..

thats the fantasy world this man was talking of,that we forgot.

Oh to be safe to openly be who I am!
We all must fit into societal expectations of proper behavior whilst we are out in the public domain.
One of the reasons that I love "Downton Abbey" is because, in general, the behavior reflects a concern for propriety in public.
I'd prefer that people keep private stuff private ... but... freedom of speech requires that I respect the right to express oneself as one sees fit.