God's Truth
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We die to the sins of the world, we die to Christ and raise up to live a new life in Christ.
ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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We die to the sins of the world, we die to Christ and raise up to live a new life in Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I just started a new thread on the purpose of repenting from sins if anyone is interested.
God's Truth
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I am very interested. Could you give me the link?
glorydaz
Well-known member
The shadow was of good things to come.....Christ's death on the cross for our sins (of which the law found us guilty), and the indwelling Holy Spirit being the "teacher". So, once again, you are in error.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Uh, no.....
God's Truth
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1 Peter 2:24 "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."
Romans 6:11 So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
God's Truth
New member
You are not keeping up with the discussion. I already gave the scripture before about the Holy Spirit being the teacher.
The old law was a shadow of Jesus. That is what scripture says, so stop saying no.
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
Derf
Well-known member
It's quite interesting that you pick that verse to cite. It says the Lord SEARCHES the hearts and UNDERSTANDS THE INTENT of the thoughts, but it refutes the idea that God knows Solomon's future heart and thoughts. I'll quote it fully here:
[1Ch 28:9] 9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Notice that it does NOT say that God knows at this time whether Solomon will forsake God or not, but IF he does, than God will cast him off forever. "Forsake" means "to quit or leave entirely; abandon; desert". You can't forsake something you didn't already have. So it refutes your claim that God knows all about Solomon's heart for the rest of his life, and that "believers" always stay believers. If it applies to our discussion of Christians (and some would say it does not, though I AGREE WITH YOU that it does), then God may "cast off forever" those that He determines TODAY are seeking Him, IF they forsake Him. To me that's an indication that salvation is a process--He starts and finishes our faith if we don't turn from Him.[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author ("starter") and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[Heb 12:7-8 KJV] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
If we refuse chastisement (which is applied when someone doesn't do what God wants them to do), then that means we DON'T turn from our sins, and the author of Hebrews seems to think that means we are NOT sons. [Heb 12:7-8 KJV] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Because true believers persist in their belief. Persistence in their belief, as far as I can tell, requires knowing what someone is going to do in the future. Free will requires that someone be allowed to change his mind. God either knows what a man is going to do for the rest of his life or He doesn't. If He does, then the man's future is locked in somehow--either because the future is fixed (and God can't even change it) or God makes us robots so we can't change. The second option is the only one that doesn't limit God. The second option does not allow for free will. Maybe that's ok when it comes to believers--believers will have handed their will over to God, to mold and shape it as He wants. If that's what "true belief" means, then the answer to your OP is there for you: belief in God requires people to fulfill what God wants them to fulfill, call it law or duty or the desire to do God's pleasure. And if God makes us robots after our conversion, so be it.
I explained this all to you before, Jerry. I'm fine if you don't accept it, but why don't you at least acknowledge that I said it and not keep asking me the same questions over and over?
I dispute the term "have been given" as if it is a package that is handed to someone. All believers have been given eternal life. If they decide they don't want it, they can commit spiritual suicide, similar to what Adam and Eve did in the Garden. Just like King Solomon--he could seek God or not seek God. It wasn't one-time event, but a life-ling, continued choice to seek God or not. I don't really see much difference between that and the Christian life--a continued choice to seek God--we don't do it perfectly, we need to repent when we stop seeking Him, God is merciful if we decide to follow after the world once in a while, or even for years, but if we reject Him outright, even after we "believe", then I don't see how we still have eternal life.
I'll tell you what I think the difference is. Adam's sin caused us to need Christ's sacrifice. Adam's sin made us sin "naturally". Jesus fixed that problem with His death on the cross. Now we are freed from sin's curse and sin's bondage. We now have the ability to truly, freely choose whether we obey our master who bought us or deny Him (2 Pet 2:1). These are mere thoughts on the subject. I could be wrong. But it makes some sense to me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The point I made was in regard to if the LORD knows if a person has true faith or not. And when someone truly believes the LORD gives Him eternal life at that time, not at some time in the future:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
If that could happen then that would mean that those who possessed eternal life could perish despite the words of the Lord Jesus to the contrary (Jn.10:28). His statement there is an unconditional statement with no conditions attached. He did not say that they would not perish only if those who received eternal life decided that they didn't want it. Instead, He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall not perish. PERIOD. No ifs, buts, or maybes.
The true believer receives eternal life the moment when he believes and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. Therefore, it is obvious that once a person truly believes the gospel he then enjoys eternal security.
Your ideas are based on the idea that the Lord Jesus didn't really mean what He said here:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Derf
Well-known member
In John 10, Jesus was distinguishing between believers and non-believers. His sheep (believers) hear His voice, and they follow Him. (John 10:27) Those that were not His sheep did not believe (John 10:26). So the ones that did not have eternal life were the ones that were not believers. I see we're in perfect agreement here.
I'll summarize:
- Believers hear His voice and follow Him (thus you have an answer to your OP).
- Unbelievers do not have eternal life.
I'm glad we could come to such perfect agreement.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The eternal life is given to true believers when they believe. And once they receive that eternal life they will never perish.
It does not matter what may or not happen after they believe because those to whom the lord Jesus has given eternal life shall never perish.
No conditions. He does not say that I give them eternal life and they shall never perish UNLESS they stop believing.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, you are right. It is ridiculous for anyone to argue that a true believer can ever stop believing. Our faith is the "evidence" of things not seen (Heb.11:1). Our evidence stands in the power of God (1 Cor.2:5). We have this evidence and it came in power and the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (1 Thess.1:5).
This is even stronger evidence than anyone has in the temporal sphere about anything. So we must stand reason on its head if we are going to assert that a true believer can ever stop believing. And this is why we read this:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).
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Derf
Well-known member
Then you are advocating that God makes believers keep believing (I admit this possibility, but it goes against my Open Theism tendencies) or that there will be unbelievers in heaven (I don't think this is possible), or that believers never stop believing (which I hope is the case). Ok. Thanks, Jerry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once a person truly believes he will always believe. Our faith is the "evidence" of things not seen (Heb.11:1). Our evidence stands in the power of God (1 Cor.2:5). We have this evidence and it came in power and the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (1 Thess.1:5).
This is even stronger evidence than anyone has in the temporal sphere about anything. So we must stand reason on its head if we are going to assert that a true believer can ever stop believing. And this is why we read this:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).
oatmeal
Well-known member
What "all things" is Paul referring to?
Is sin included in all things?
What is Paul all about?
Was Paul fulfilling God's calling in his life?
Was Paul believing and living the truth to the best of his ability, knowledge and wisdom and understanding?
Was Paul living a lifestyle that
a. included sin being lawful
b. repudiated sin by believing the truth
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It can only be in regard to what Paul wrote here:
"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from law:
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).
In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:
"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).
That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:
"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).