ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me

[Derf]

I was really done with this conversation, bested by your tenacious persistence.

The eternal life is given to true believers when they believe. And once they receive that eternal life they will never perish.

It does not matter what may or not happen after they believe because those to whom the lord Jesus has given eternal life shall never perish.

No conditions. He does not say that I give them eternal life and they shall never perish UNLESS they stop believing.

NO CONDITIONS?????????? You can say that with a straight face??

I have to say that there is a condition Jesus gives. And though the wording is not exactly the one you are saying is NOT there, it is so very, very close:

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [Jhn 3:15 NKJV]
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [Jhn 3:16 NKJV]
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [Jhn 3:18 NKJV]
"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [Jhn 3:20 NKJV]
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." [Jhn 3:21 NKJV]

In fact, Young's Literal Version is even more explicit (so add another "very" to my statement above) in its emphasis on the present tense of the belief, which although awkward in our reading of it, is probably more accurate in its translation of the Greek tenses:

that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, [Jhn 3:15 YLT]
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. [Jhn 3:16 YLT]
he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [Jhn 3:18 YLT]

And notice the following verses, how they relate the "not believing" to "doing wicked things":
"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [Jhn 3:20 NKJV]
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." [Jhn 3:21 NKJV]

`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; [Jhn 3:19 YLT]
for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected; [Jhn 3:20 YLT]

 

[Jerry Shugart]

NO CONDITIONS?????????? You can say that with a straight face??

I can find no condition here:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

Please be specific and tell me where we can find a condition in this verse.

You quoted many verses but not one of them even hints that the statement which the Lord Jesus made at John 10:28 is conditioned on anything.

if it was conditional it would say something like this:

"...and they shall never perish UNLESS they do this or not do that.

 

[Nihilo]

Spoiler

I was really done with this conversation, bested by your tenacious persistence.

NO CONDITIONS?

Spoiler

????????? You can say that with a straight face??

I have to say that there is a condition Jesus gives. And though the wording is not exactly the one you are saying is NOT there, it is so very, very close:

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [Jhn 3:15 NKJV]
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [Jhn 3:16 NKJV]
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [Jhn 3:18 NKJV]
"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [Jhn 3:20 NKJV]
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." [Jhn 3:21 NKJV]

In fact, Young's Literal Version is even more explicit (so add another "very" to my statement above) in its emphasis on the present tense of the belief, which although awkward in our reading of it, is probably more accurate in its translation of the Greek tenses:

that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, [Jhn 3:15 YLT]
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. [Jhn 3:16 YLT]
he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [Jhn 3:18 YLT]

And notice the following verses, how they relate the "not believing" to "doing wicked things":
"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [Jhn 3:20 NKJV]
"But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." [Jhn 3:21 NKJV]

`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; [Jhn 3:19 YLT]
for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected; [Jhn 3:20 YLT]

Derf, are you aware that your view regarding this issue resembles in almost all meaningful ways, Catholicism? If you do, what do you think of that? Thanks.

 

[Derf]

Derf, are you aware that your view regarding this issue resembles in almost all meaningful ways, Catholicism? If you do, what do you think of that? Thanks.

you mean because catholics think you need to believe in Christ to be saved?

Maybe I'm missing your point. Is calling someone a catholic the big insult around here?

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[Derf]

I can find no condition here:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

Please be specific and tell me where we can find a condition in this verse.

You quoted many verses but not one of them even hints that the statement which the Lord Jesus made at John 10:28 is conditioned on anything.

if it was conditional it would say something like this:

"...and they shall never perish UNLESS they do this or not do that.

That's. What. Those. Verses. Were. Saying: believe or perish. Just because you find verses that don't say that doesn't mean you can dismiss the ones that do.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nihilo]

you mean because catholics think you need to believe in Christ to be saved?

No, because of the Catholic and not Protestant notion, of mortal sins.

Maybe I'm missing your point. Is calling someone a catholic the big insult around here?

It's one of them, but that's not the point.

 

[Derf]

No, because of the Catholic and not Protestant notion, of mortal sins.
It's one of them, but that's not the point.

Enlighten me!

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[Jerry Shugart]

That's. What. Those. Verses. Were. Saying: believe or perish. Just because you find verses that don't say that doesn't mean you can dismiss the ones that do.

We are speaking about the fact that the Lord gives eternal life to those who believe (Jn.5:24). And once a person is given that life they shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

So from the moment when a person believes that person enjoys eternal security.

This is so simple.

 

[Derf]

We are speaking about the fact that the Lord gives eternal life to those who believe (Jn.5:24). And once a person is given that life they shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

So from the moment when a person believes that person enjoys eternal security.

This is so simple.

Agreed! And anyone who doesn't believe is condemned. Jesus deals with those that seemed to believe, but didn't follow through in the sower and the seed parable. And

The Lord may know the hearts of those He gives eternal life to, but we don't. And we may not know our own hearts well enough, since they are deceitfully wicked.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. [Mar 7:20 KJV]
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, [Mar 7:21 KJV]
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: [Mar 7:22 KJV]
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. [Mar 7:23 KJV]​

Jesus indicated that the heart is revealed by our actions. If those actions remain in our fruit ("the fruit of our doings" in the following verse),

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? [Jer 17:9 KJV]
I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. [Jer 17:10 KJV]​

The Lord seems to search our hearts by looking at what we do ("to give every man according to his WAYS")

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [Jhn 6:67 KJV]
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [Jhn 6:68 KJV]
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. [Jhn 6:69 KJV]​

After many disciples had left Jesus and no longer walked with Him (John 6:66), Peter then gave his confession that they still believed and were "sure" who Christ was. Peter spoke for "the twelve", yet there was one in the mix that did NOT believe.

Yes, Jesus knew Judas and that he was a "devil"*. But nobody else did. Maybe even Judas did not realize Jesus was talking about him at this point. My point is that our "everlasting life" status is dependent on our belief status, not on our belief history.

If you were talking to Judas at this point in his life, I have little doubt that you would tell him that he was saved and already had "everlasting life". If not, I'd sure like to know why not.




*According to John, the apostles later realized that Judas had been stealing from the common "purse" (John 12:6). I expect that Jesus was aware of Judas's thefts, which revealed his heart. Maybe He knew that kind of stuff about Judas when He called him to be one of the twelve.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Agreed! And anyone who doesn't believe is condemned. Jesus deals with those that seemed to believe, but didn't follow through in the sower and the seed parable. And

The Lord may know the hearts of those He gives eternal life to, but we don't. And we may not know our own hearts well enough, since they are deceitfully wicked.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. [Mar 7:20 KJV]
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, [Mar 7:21 KJV]
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: [Mar 7:22 KJV]
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. [Mar 7:23 KJV]​

Jesus indicated that the heart is revealed by our actions. If those actions remain in our fruit ("the fruit of our doings" in the following verse),

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? [Jer 17:9 KJV]
I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. [Jer 17:10 KJV]​

The Lord seems to search our hearts by looking at what we do ("to give every man according to his WAYS")

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [Jhn 6:67 KJV]
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [Jhn 6:68 KJV]
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. [Jhn 6:69 KJV]​

After many disciples had left Jesus and no longer walked with Him (John 6:66), Peter then gave his confession that they still believed and were "sure" who Christ was. Peter spoke for "the twelve", yet there was one in the mix that did NOT believe.

Yes, Jesus knew Judas and that he was a "devil"*. But nobody else did. Maybe even Judas did not realize Jesus was talking about him at this point. My point is that our "everlasting life" status is dependent on our belief status, not on our belief history.

If you were talking to Judas at this point in his life, I have little doubt that you would tell him that he was saved and already had "everlasting life". If not, I'd sure like to know why not.




*According to John, the apostles later realized that Judas had been stealing from the common "purse" (John 12:6). I expect that Jesus was aware of Judas's thefts, which revealed his heart. Maybe He knew that kind of stuff about Judas when He called him to be one of the twelve.

Excellent points Derf... I'm just throwing in a rapid thought about Judas, because I just studied up on him recently.

Obviously... I'm not intending to intrude on [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] 's response... which I look forward to seeing...

Judas never believed. He was a follower that capitalized on the profit of following Jesus. I'm sure you remember how Judas scolded the price of the perfume and claimed it should go to the poor. Later... it is revealed that he simply wanted the money for himself. He was the money manager of Jesus ministry and he couldn't keep his hands out of the money.

I'm sure you know... Mammon or Money is symbolic of Pride and Carnal hypocrisy. Judas is a picture of the Proud wolf that professes to be a follower of Jesus, but never relinquished faith in his dead works. Judas is obviously a typification of Satan, as you eluded to. In fact... Satan literally uses Judas like hands at the end of Christ's ministry.

The bottom line? Judas never believed and never had genuine faith. His faith was false.

All Christian Love and Respect,

-EE

(John 10:1) < -- Judas exemplifies this, as well.

 

[Derf]

Excellent points Derf... I'm just throwing in a rapid thought about Judas, because I just studied up on him recently.

Obviously... I'm not intending to intrude on [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] 's response... which I look forward to seeing...

Judas never believed. He was a follower that capitalized on the profit of following Jesus. I'm sure you remember how Judas scolded the price of the perfume and claimed it should go to the poor. Later... it is revealed that he simply wanted the money for himself. He was the money manager of Jesus ministry and he couldn't keep his hands out of the money.

I'm sure you know... Mammon or Money is symbolic of Pride and Carnal hypocrisy. Judas is a picture of the Proud wolf that professes to be a follower of Jesus, but never relinquished faith in his dead works. Judas is obviously a typification of Satan, as you eluded to. In fact... Satan literally uses Judas like hands at the end of Christ's ministry.

The bottom line? Judas never believed and never had genuine faith. His faith was false.

All Christian Love and Respect,

-EE

(John 10:1) < -- Judas exemplifies this, as well.

Hi EE. Thanks for the response! I agree with everything you've said about Judas. I think (in my speculating mind) that there was even more about Judas that we don't quite know, but that we are given hints about. For one, did you know that it was in "Simon's" house that Judas made that comment? Did you know that that particular Simon was also called "Simon the Leper"? And I believe he was called a pharisee, too. (Pardon if I'm mistaken on any of this, I'm doing from memory in a rush to get off somewhere.) Did you also know that Judas's father was named "Simon"? And Judas was the only apostle not from Galilee.

Now for some serious speculation:
It would be quite interesting if Judas came to Christ because his father was healed of leprosy (Simon the leper wouldn't have been having people over to his house if he were still a leper), but that because he was a pharisee (or son of one), he didn't like the way Jesus denigrated the pharisees. So, when Jesus called Judas to be one of the 12, He did it knowing his heart, as Jerry would no doubt agree with, but knowing it at least partially because of his actions and background. By the time of John 6, which is at the end of Jesus' earthly ministry, Jesus could definitely say that Judas was not yielding to His teaching.

But all that aside, I hope Jerry will answer my question about how he would have counseled Judas about his everlasting state. Certainly he had gone out with the 12 previously to tell people about the kingdom, and he likely participated in the miracles they did (not sure about this one, but the other disciples didn't know he was different at the time). So all of his external shell would have indicated that he was saved and bound for glory. If he had a short time of despondence, where it looked like his faith was wavering, doesn't it seem likely that he could have been counseled by other believers that he was assured of eternal life?

And if we could be wrong about Judas, couldn't we be wrong about any supposed believer? The difference was not one that we could necessarily have put our finger on, but there were two signs. 1. that he was a thief, and 2. that he didn't really believe. (The second was only known by God and Judas).

So how do we use this information? Well, it seems to me that to tell people that they are destined for eternal life based on a past decision point is foolhardy and perhaps eternal harmful. But to tell people that they are destined to eternal life if they believe, not yesterday, not 10 years ago, but if they believe today that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, they have eternal life.

Well...that turned out longer than I thought it would. Sorry for the rapid word spewing. Gotta go.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Hi EE. Thanks for the response! I agree with everything you've said about Judas. I think (in my speculating mind) that there was even more about Judas that we don't quite know, but that we are given hints about. For one, did you know that it was in "Simon's" house that Judas made that comment? Did you know that that particular Simon was also called "Simon the Leper"? And I believe he was called a pharisee, too. (Pardon if I'm mistaken on any of this, I'm doing from memory in a rush to get off somewhere.) Did you also know that Judas's father was named "Simon"? And Judas was the only apostle not from Galilee.

Now for some serious speculation:
It would be quite interesting if Judas came to Christ because his father was healed of leprosy (Simon the leper wouldn't have been having people over to his house if he were still a leper), but that because he was a pharisee (or son of one), he didn't like the way Jesus denigrated the pharisees. So, when Jesus called Judas to be one of the 12, He did it knowing his heart, as Jerry would no doubt agree with, but knowing it at least partially because of his actions and background. By the time of John 6, which is at the end of Jesus' earthly ministry, Jesus could definitely say that Judas was not yielding to His teaching.

But all that aside, I hope Jerry will answer my question about how he would have counseled Judas about his everlasting state. Certainly he had gone out with the 12 previously to tell people about the kingdom, and he likely participated in the miracles they did (not sure about this one, but the other disciples didn't know he was different at the time). So all of his external shell would have indicated that he was saved and bound for glory. If he had a short time of despondence, where it looked like his faith was wavering, doesn't it seem likely that he could have been counseled by other believers that he was assured of eternal life?

And if we could be wrong about Judas, couldn't we be wrong about any supposed believer? The difference was not one that we could necessarily have put our finger on, but there were two signs. 1. that he was a thief, and 2. that he didn't really believe. (The second was only known by God and Judas).

So how do we use this information? Well, it seems to me that to tell people that they are destined for eternal life based on a past decision point is foolhardy and perhaps eternal harmful. But to tell people that they are destined to eternal life if they believe, not yesterday, not 10 years ago, but if they believe today that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, they have eternal life.

Well...that turned out longer than I thought it would. Sorry for the rapid word spewing. Gotta go.

I totally understand this! Your additional study on Judas and speculative ponderings are wonderful! I thoroughly love them!

You would probably glean from my style that I believe in turning from self in such a way that is so radical that I'm certain it is impossible to miss. As I can tell you are a grace man, I know your implied concerns. I lean more towards Jerry's Perspective on this matter... so instead of giving differing perspective... I'll wait with you to see Jerry's opinion.

 

[musterion]

The bottom line? Judas never believed and never had genuine faith. His faith was false.

How did that go unnoticed for three years?

 

[Nanja]

How did that go unnoticed for three years?

Apparently God ordained it Job 23:13-14; Dan. 4:35.

It was God's Will that Jesus would be crucified and slain Acts 2:23.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Agreed! And anyone who doesn't believe is condemned.

Once again you try to change the subject. We are not talkng about who might have true faith or who might not.

Instead, we are talking about those who have true faith, the ones to whom the Lord gives eternal life (Jn.5:24). Once those people believe they are given eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. Once again, this is an unconditional statement.

It is a fact that those who are given eternal life shall never perish. Despite this you try to prove that they can. Besides that,"eternal life" is a gift (Ro.6:23) and the Lord will not revoke or take back that gift:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).

The Lord is not One who will give a gift to another and then take it back.

Again, this is so simple!

 

[musterion]

Apparently God ordained it Job 23:13-14; Dan. 4:35.

It was God's Will that Jesus would be crucified and slain Acts 2:23.

You miss the point.

 

[Derf]

Once again you try to change the subject. We are not talkng about who might have true faith or who might not.

Instead, we are talking about those who have true faith, the ones to whom the Lord gives eternal life (Jn.5:24). Once those people believe they are given eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. Once again, this is an unconditional statement.

It is a fact that those who are given eternal life shall never perish. Despite this you try to prove that they can. Besides that,"eternal life" is a gift (Ro.6:23) and the Lord will not revoke or take back that gift:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).

The Lord is not One who will give a gift to another and then take it back.

Again, this is so simple!

So simple that you won't even answer my question about Judas?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So simple that you won't even answer my question about Judas?

Are you saying that the LORD did not even know if Judas had true faith or not?

 

[Derf]

Are you saying that the LORD did not even know if Judas had true faith or not?

No. I'm saying that if you were talking to Judas during a down time in his like, perhaps even after he had betrayed the Lord, you would have told him that he had everlasting life, so he needn't be down about it.

If that's not so, what would you have told him?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No. I'm saying that if you were talking to Judas during a down time in his like, perhaps even after he had betrayed the Lord, you would have told him that he had everlasting life, so he needn't be down about it.

If that's not so, what would you have told him?

I have searched the Scriptures and I certainly cannot say that he ever had true faith. In fact, by what the Lord Jesus said at Matthew 26:24 I cannot agree with anyone who says that it is certain that he was saved. So I wouldn't tell him that he need not worry about what he had done.