ECT Adam and death

nikolai_42

nikolai_42

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Did Adam really know what God meant by "death"? I mean, I assume he had an idea, but how? What experience did he have that pointed to it? Or did he understand it simply because the Creator gave him life and this would mean forfeiture?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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nikolai_42 said:
Did Adam really know what God meant by "death"? I mean, I assume he had an idea, but how? What experience did he have that pointed to it? Or did he understand it simply because the Creator gave him life and this would mean forfeiture?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
Click to expand...

That certainly would have the time to ask for clarification had there been any doubt in his "Superhuman" mind __ doncha think?
 
6days

6days

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nikolai_42 said:
Did Adam really know what God meant by "death"? I mean, I assume he had an idea, but how? What experience did he have that pointed to it? Or did he understand it simply because the Creator gave him life and this would mean forfeiture?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
Click to expand...

God obviously created Adam with knowledge. He understood the world around him. Notice the intelligence of Adam's response after Eve was created
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
That certainly would have the time to ask for clarification had there been any doubt in his "Superhuman" mind __ doncha think?
Click to expand...

It properly staggers the mind that - knowing the Creator directly, personally and (I have to assume) intimately as Adam did - he would turn around and heed the contradictory insinuations of a lowly "nahash". I know the KJV says serpent but slithering around in the dust was part of the curse. What he was before isn't clear to me...all scripture says is that he was more "subtil" then the beasts of the field. Apparently that subtility was pretty keen...
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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nikolai_42 said:
That doesn't get to the answer about death though.
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Since we know that physical death can't happen in the sense the soul of man, who he actually is, will live somewhere for all eternity. Therefore, the death spoken of by God can only mean separation from Himself.
 
Mocking You

Mocking You

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nikolai_42 said:
Was there any such thing as death before the fall?
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Regarding the death of animals, the Bible isn't clear. The Bible says that after Adam sinned death SPREAD to all men, which leaves some room for animal death before the Fall.

Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
 
6days

6days

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nikolai_42 said:
Was there any such thing as death before the fall?
Click to expand...
Death was not part of God's perfect creation (Not with nephesh chayyah creatures)... Death was a penalty for sin...and it seems the penalty applied to animals (Gen.3:14) and further to all creation.

Also, notice that in the "very good" creation, the animals were vegetarian. “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be food for you. And to the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground–everything that has the breath of life in it–I give every green plant for food. And it was so” (Genesis 1:29-30)

It was only after the flood that God gave permission to eat meat. Genesis 9:2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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6days said:
"Very Good" actually.
Only theistic evolutionists imagine God would create anything that isn't perfect.
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Perhaps we might see the meaning of the word perfect more clearly if we used the word "complete" instead as in "be complete as your heavenly Father is complete". . . :)
 
Jedidiah

Jedidiah

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nikolai_42 said:
Did Adam really know what God meant by "death"? I mean, I assume he had an idea, but how? What experience did he have that pointed to it? Or did he understand it simply because the Creator gave him life and this would mean forfeiture?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
Click to expand...
Dying is tied to knowledge of good and evil. How ? Maybe death consciousness ? It could be that life is no different now than in the garden, and the whole difference is the sinful encephalopathogen that infects our mortal bodies, and makes us death conscious in a way that brings and requires sin, along with the fear of death that seems fairly widespread if it doesn't affect us all.

But I more think that it also meant the introduction of physical death into the world, if not for all animals, certainly for humans.
 
WonderfulLordJesus

WonderfulLordJesus

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nikolai_42 said:
Did Adam really know what God meant by "death"? I mean, I assume he had an idea, but how? What experience did he have that pointed to it? Or did he understand it simply because the Creator gave him life and this would mean forfeiture?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
Click to expand...

Why the assumption Adam needed an experiential reference? He was created an adult. He neither needed to learn to speak, like a baby needs to learn. That is, the same argument could be used as to how Adam could have been already a cognizant being in any way, to start naming animals, for instance. Also, God would not have given Adam an instruction he had no understanding of, just as you wouldn't expect it useful to start teaching your newborn baby integral Calculus, a silly notion. Adam was created with an already developed consciousness, therefore no such ensuing mysteries, if we grasp this primal truth.
 
6days

6days

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Cross Reference said:
Perhaps we might see the meaning of the word perfect more clearly if we used the word "complete" instead as in "be complete as your heavenly Father is complete". . . :)
Click to expand...
Not sure what you are getting at??
In any case it would seem there was no animal death before Adam sinned.
If you don't believe that, then you have a creation where animals ate eat other alive...where death, pain, suffering and extinctions were common...and God calling it very good.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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6days said:
Not sure what you are getting at??
In any case it would seem there was no animal death before Adam sinned.
If you don't believe that, then you have a creation where animals ate eat other alive...where death, pain, suffering and extinctions were common...and God calling it very good.
Click to expand...

Perfect = complete.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Why say perfect when it was only very good?
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God is perfect

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

logically: God is good, God is perfect
and he called his creation good then by his definition it was perfect .
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
WonderfulLordJesus said:
Why the assumption Adam needed an experiential reference? He was created an adult. He neither needed to learn to speak, like a baby needs to learn. That is, the same argument could be used as to how Adam could have been already a cognizant being in any way, to start naming animals, for instance. Also, God would not have given Adam an instruction he had no understanding of, just as you wouldn't expect it useful to start teaching your newborn baby integral Calculus, a silly notion. Adam was created with an already developed consciousness, therefore no such ensuing mysteries, if we grasp this primal truth.
Click to expand...


Indeed . . . Adam was promised, by the Word of God, everlasting LIFE by freely partaking of all God's providence; especially the Tree of Life which substance would cause A&E to live forever.

Adam was not a brute beast, but created in the image of God; intellectually able to comprehend the Word of God, and also recognize opposites.

With the promise given of eternal life given by God, through the provision of the Tree of Life, and the command to not partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, lest he die, Adam had full understanding of God's commands and will and all promises and warnings contained therein. (Adam heard and knew the LAW of God.)

Adam KNEW, to obey God was to live, and to disobey God was to die.

So do all the seed of Adam, to this day. Even in their fallen condition, all humanity retains and possesses this inherent knowledge and moral conscience of what is really right and what is really wrong.

No man has any excuse to fail to obey God's commands and thereby sin against Righteous God. . .
 
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