Abortion and The Holocaust....Differences?

gcthomas

gcthomas

New member
chair said:
In fact, it is possible to be anti-abortion, yet think that a fetus is not the same as a born human. Abortion in that case would be a crime, but not murder.
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Not just possible, but almost universally accepted in jurisdictions in America and around the world, if laws are anything to go by
 
C

chair

Well-known member
glassjester said:
You're missing one law from that list.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1841
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Yes, except that:

...The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism.

Because of principles of federalism embodied in the United States Constitution, Federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states. However, 38 states also recognize the fetus or "unborn child" as a crime victim, at least for purposes of homicide or feticide.[2]

Source
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
chair said:
Yes, except that:

...The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military.
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Yes, that's true.

Now maybe you can answer. No one else has.

Why does the United States government regard the killing of an unborn child as murder?
 
C

chair

Well-known member
gcthomas said:
Not just possible, but almost universally accepted in jurisdictions in America and around the world, if laws are anything to go by
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Yes. It is the case in Jewish law, as far as I know.

I think the anti-abortion groups are doing themselves a disservice by taking the extreme abortion=murder view of things. Though they apparently really believe that concept is true.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
glassjester said:
Yes, that's true.

Now maybe you can answer. No one else has.

Why does the United States government regard the killing of an unborn child as murder?
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Laws reflect political pressures and needs. There is nothing "holy" about them, nor do they necessarily reflect morality. (the same is true of the Constitution, by the way).

Citing a law does not prove the morality of anything.

edit: was the morality of this issue different before 2004?
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
chair said:
Laws reflect political pressures and needs. There is nothing "holy" about them, nor do they necessarily reflect morality.
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I make no appeal to any supernatural or religious principle whatsoever, in regarding the killing of an unborn child as murder, nor does the law.

You're right. There's nothing holy about the law.


So my question remains. Why does the U.S. government regard the killing on an unborn child as murder?
 
C

chair

Well-known member
glassjester said:
I make no appeal to any supernatural or religious principle whatsoever, in regarding the killing of an unborn child as murder, nor does the law.

You're right. There's nothing holy about the law.


So my question remains. Why does the U.S. government regard the killing on an unborn child as murder?
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I'll make it more clear: Because there was political pressure in that direction from citizens.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
glassjester said:
On what basis do you deem current abortion law to be just, but the law regarding killing an unborn child as murder to be unjust?
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I am not interested in the US legalities. I don't live in the US anymore.
I think abortion is a crime, but not the same as murder.
 
Nick M

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
chair said:
Let's see:

1. The United States decides that all unborn fetuses are not only not-human, but evil beings that are dangerous to society.
2. The United States goes on a national campaign to locate these evil fetuses and destroy them.
3. The United States kills these evil fetuses, even if people try hiding them
4. The United States considers protecting a fetus a crime, and puts those who do so in prison- or executes them.
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Let's see.

1. Jews are not only non-human but dangerous.

Is that how it is?
 
pqmomba8

pqmomba8

New member
You know what' missing from this discussion?
If all these anti-wome....errr....sorry, I mean, "pro-life" folks would devote 1/10 (!!!) of their time and effort in helping the LIVING children (and their mothers), it would be a beauiful thing.

But they are alive, so these fetus-worshippers could care less....

I don't see them lining up to tranplant the fetuses of the poor, minority women into their own wombs...that would be something that Christ might do, right? :)
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
pqmomba8 said:
You know what' missing from this discussion?
If all these anti-wome....errr....sorry, I mean, "pro-life" folks would devote 1/10 (!!!) of their time and effort in helping the LIVING children (and their mothers), it would be a beauiful thing.
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How do you know what I do or don't do for a living?
 
pqmomba8

pqmomba8

New member
glassjester said:
How do you know what I do or don't do for a living?
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Fair enough....Obviously, I don't mean every one individually. However, I must admit that all I see and hear is the profound zeal for the fetus and not a peep about the living. Kind of makes you wonder. Seems they stop caring the instance the kid is born. :(
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
pqmomba8 said:
Fair enough....Obviously, I don't mean every one individually. However, I must admit that all I see and hear is the profound zeal for the fetus and not a peep about the living. Kind of makes you wonder. Seems they stop caring the instance the kid is born. :(
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True. So why is that?

If American children (outside of the womb) were being killed by the millions, I'd be speaking out against that, too. Wouldn't you?
 
glassjester

glassjester

Well-known member
glassjester said:
True. So why is that?

If American children (outside of the womb) were being killed by the millions, I'd be speaking out against that, too. Wouldn't you?
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That sounds horribly nationalistic, doesn't it?

I refer to American children because it is American laws which allow the massive slaughter of unborn American children, and American laws which I wish to see change.

I have no say in the laws of nations in which I am not a citizen (and I barely have any say in this nation's laws, as it is).
 
pqmomba8

pqmomba8

New member
glassjester said:
True. So why is that?

If American children (outside of the womb) were being killed by the millions, I'd be speaking out against that, too. Wouldn't you?
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I (and all right minded inividuals, I hope) would as well. There's obviously a difference in how we see the fetus....and where do you draw the line? Can we terminate the pregnancy at ANY point? Is the fetus sacrosant immediately after the egg is fertilized? Ehhhhhmmmmm.
 
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