In general I think they are experts about everybody and everything, with the possible exception of their own religion.
9/11 American Muslims
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
In general I think they are experts about everybody and everything, with the possible exception of their own religion.
Well they certainly think they know Judaism inside and out.:rotfl:
I think I should explain my viewpoint here.
There is clearly a problem in Islam today. Islam today has generated many fanatical groups, that do awful things. And it is not just ISIS.
Yet to suspect all Muslims of being fanatic terrorists is absurd. It is not true, and pretending that is reality is only going to make things worse.
We need to take care of the dangerous Islamic fanatics, while maintaining our ideas of democracy and freedom. And that is not easy. It is much easier to take the extreme view, label them all as evil, and- well- what exactly would you do?
In Hebrew we have an expression "It isn't: bang! and we're done!". It describes simplistic solutions to complex problems- solutions that never work.
There is clearly a problem in Islam today. Islam today has generated many fanatical groups, that do awful things. And it is not just ISIS.
Yet to suspect all Muslims of being fanatic terrorists is absurd. It is not true, and pretending that is reality is only going to make things worse.
We need to take care of the dangerous Islamic fanatics, while maintaining our ideas of democracy and freedom. And that is not easy. It is much easier to take the extreme view, label them all as evil, and- well- what exactly would you do?
In Hebrew we have an expression "It isn't: bang! and we're done!". It describes simplistic solutions to complex problems- solutions that never work.
Quetzal
New member
:up:
This is the point that needs to be made more often. Let's even assume that our resident Muslim "experts" here have read to Quran, have you studied it? Gone to classes, gone to mosques, asked questions? The Bible is full of scriptures that if we took out of cultural context (we wouldn't do that now, would we? :chuckle: ), are quite scary. The same goes with the Quran.
Something else to think about (not directed at you, Granite): There are ~1.6 billion Muslims in the world. I think the last estimated number of ISIS memberships was around ~80,000 in the middle of this year. That means, ISIS makes up .05% of all Muslims. Don't get me wrong, 80,000 is a scary number, too. But you are condemning 1.5 BILLION people because you are afraid. Let that sink in for a bit, I need more coffee...
I'm reading Harris and Nawaz's conversation in the slim Islam right now, and it's a fascinating discussion. Nawaz does an outstanding job breaking down the distinctions between revolutionary Muslims, jihadists, cultural Muslims, conservative and reform factions within Islam, and the like.
Quetzal
New member
I had a professor in college, brilliant man. Spoke Arabic and studied Islam for over 40 years. I asked him about the differences once. He pointed at the bookshelf with easily 150 books on it and said "Where do you want to begin?" It is a huge topic, which is why the condemning blanket statements frustrate me.
Interplanner
Well-known member
As far as context and the Qu'ran goes, the most vital piece of knowledge is about 'abrogation' or 'trumping.' The doctrine is that Medinia trumps Meccia: revelations received at Medina abrogate those received at Mecca. Surah 9 is the most violent and exclusive. It was received at Medina. It trumps the others. The Qu'ran is not set up chronologically but by length of Surahs. You have to become familiar enough with the introductory teachings to learn that 'abrogation' exists. You need to know the history of Mohammed to know that Medina comes after Mecca. He was more desperate to succeed later at Medina.
But there is something more contemporary that is a vital distinction. Once it is learned then it is possible to say that we know something extremely important about how Islam functions. Let's say you hear about the frustration of Islamic youth in the suburbs of France. In Western media, this would seem to be the usual media line about economics or jobs etc. However, this is not the aspect at all.
The problem is a bit too unthinkable for the secular West. The problem is that the youth are taught the exclusive, theocratic doctrines at all their meetings. They then have 'tension' about being out in society where, for example, women are 'uncovered' (in terms of halal). So some French suburbs have become places where it is dangerous for a non-Muslim woman to be out alone and 'uncovered.'
A few years ago, there was a major secular US magazine like ATLANTIC MONTHLY with an article about a major feminist in France. In the beginning of the article, she described herself as having very tolerant views. But she kept having to mop up after women devastated by Islamic view of women, and by the end of the article she was no longer able to have those same tolerant views about Islam.
But there is something more contemporary that is a vital distinction. Once it is learned then it is possible to say that we know something extremely important about how Islam functions. Let's say you hear about the frustration of Islamic youth in the suburbs of France. In Western media, this would seem to be the usual media line about economics or jobs etc. However, this is not the aspect at all.
The problem is a bit too unthinkable for the secular West. The problem is that the youth are taught the exclusive, theocratic doctrines at all their meetings. They then have 'tension' about being out in society where, for example, women are 'uncovered' (in terms of halal). So some French suburbs have become places where it is dangerous for a non-Muslim woman to be out alone and 'uncovered.'
A few years ago, there was a major secular US magazine like ATLANTIC MONTHLY with an article about a major feminist in France. In the beginning of the article, she described herself as having very tolerant views. But she kept having to mop up after women devastated by Islamic view of women, and by the end of the article she was no longer able to have those same tolerant views about Islam.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Another additional thing to note about the violent groups that make the most headlines--al Qaeda, ISIS. They are purging Islam--it is viewed as corrupt and needs to be cleaned up to make way for the Prophet to return to earth.
I have noticed this for about 10 years because of reading moderate Muslim comments about al Qaeda etc. However, yesterday I saw CNN's THE SEVENTIES; the emergence of terrorism. The documentary showed that there was some secular terrorism sandwiched into that decade (Baader-Meinhof, etc) but returned to the Islamic Revolution in Iran. But it was not quite done. It then showed an item I had forgot or never heard: several hundred extremists raided the Grand Mosque in Mecca during a Ramadan 'to purify the religion' because it was seen as corrupted by various regional kings etc. So the purging theme has been there a long time and is the most violent wing of it all, toward both those inside and outside.
I have noticed this for about 10 years because of reading moderate Muslim comments about al Qaeda etc. However, yesterday I saw CNN's THE SEVENTIES; the emergence of terrorism. The documentary showed that there was some secular terrorism sandwiched into that decade (Baader-Meinhof, etc) but returned to the Islamic Revolution in Iran. But it was not quite done. It then showed an item I had forgot or never heard: several hundred extremists raided the Grand Mosque in Mecca during a Ramadan 'to purify the religion' because it was seen as corrupted by various regional kings etc. So the purging theme has been there a long time and is the most violent wing of it all, toward both those inside and outside.
It is an Islamic Inquisition. They have the means to wreak global slaughter such as the original Inquisitors did not possess.
They have the will and means to destroy civilization as we know it today.
Has anyone read "Trinity" by Leon Uris? As a Christian female I would rather be dead than under the jurisdiction of Islam.
May God protect us.
Quetzal
New member
Needless fear mongering. If this was the case, all 1.6 million Muslims would have ended it a long time ago.
We shall see....
CherubRam
New member
The difference between Christians and Muslims is, for us, killing those who do not believe is murder. For the Muslim, they are told to kill the unbelievers, that it is their duty. That is what makes them an enemy of the state. Deception is a way of life for them.
Quetzal
New member
:rotfl: Have you ever read a Christian history book?
Interplanner
Well-known member
I think you're referring to mistaken Christians. They didn't strategize to decieve. They were simply mistaken about theocracy or about the necessity of baptism etc.
But the doctrine of al-Taqia allows for widespread deception, so long as it is strategic and the long-term goal is to advance Islam.
Quetzal
New member
Oh sure, when Christians do it they are mistaken.
brewmama
New member
What is that supposed to mean? I've read a lot of Christian history.
Quetzal
New member
Deception and corruption is a very large part of Christian history.
Deception and corruption is a large part of history in general. It is a part. There are other parts.
We have tyrants and vicious despots aplenty in the history of this wicked world.
BUT, we have Buddha, Confucius, and because we have Jesus we also have St. Francis, Mother Theresa, Sister Kenny and hundreds of unsung heroes down through the ages.
Evil people seek power over the masses. Good people go about their business one to one, helping, nurturing, healing.
brewmama
New member
Again, I ask for a clarification. Such as...??
Quetzal
New member
The fact you have to ask illustrates how little you know about your own faith background. But, let's start with basics. Indulgences.