Your opinion on God’s Law.

[Jacob]

Hi....
I'm late to this thread.
God's Law? You mean the 600+ laws of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy..? those laws?

All of those laws, the whole lot, from a ban on eating shellfish, to rules about free 'grazing' during harvesting, to rules of marriage and sexual behaviour etc, the whole lot, were EXACTLY what was required in order to protect and strengthen the Israelite peoples AT THAT TIME!

Even in Jesus's time most of those rules were important, although the rich upper classes had ignored them in favour of fashionable Hellenism etc.

But today some of those rules no longer need apply.

And so, if you believe in those old Israelite laws you should keep the lot, every one.... and no cherry picking. Or, alternatively, you can pay more attention to modern legislation in the countries that you reside in.

No cherry picking!

God's Law (Torah law) and the rest of the TaNaKh and also the New Testament writings are all important to know what God's commands are.

You should also observe the Law in the country in which you live, or in the country in which you are.

You spoke of legislation, and I don't know if you are a United States Citizen or not.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[Derf]

I don't have that authority Derf. Neither do you. There can be a question about what this should look like if anything in the new covenant which has already come. Is the old covenant still in place and only called old because of the coming of a new covenant?

Does anybody have that authority??????? Is it against God's law for a judge to sentence a murderer to death and make sure that sentence is carried out?

If so, then "God's law" is ineffective, as it contradicts itself.

 

[Jacob]

Does anybody have that authority??????? Is it against God's law for a judge to sentence a murderer to death and make sure that sentence is carried out?

If so, then "God's law" is ineffective, as it contradicts itself.

Does anyone have what authority. I believe you are saying a judge does. You are not the judge. Don't think the judge wants you to kill anyone. I am assuming you believe that the death penalty can be in place in the new covenant since the coming of the new covenant, but how? Is the new covenant only for believers? Is it against the death penalty? Is it against the death penalty for believers (new covenant or otherwise (old covenant))? Since forgiveness is in Christ would a non-believer be tried and killed?

Also, would or is a sentence ever for death? Or, a punishment of time in jail? What is a sentence? Is a sentence ever for death? What is a sentence?

 

[Choleric]

I was already a Christian before observing Passover. I did not know what it meant that Christ is our Passover. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. It was never by works. Obeying God is still important, even with the coming of the new covenant. There are different kinds of righteousness. Positional righteousness, or imputed righteousness, is not righteousness by what you practice but righteousness by who you are in Christ. It will always be good to practice righteousness.

Of course, we are saved "that the righteousness of the law wou=edl be fulfilled in us" who walk after the Spirit. But observing passover is not obeying God, since we no longer observe passover since Christ came.

There are males and females who are Christian. So there are Jews and Gentiles who are Christian.

You are conflating two things. There is the Jewish race and there is the religion of judaism. You can't convert to the Jewish race. you are either born jewish or you are not.

As far as religion is concerned, you are either practicing christianity or practicing judaism. they are two different methods of attaining righteousness that are opposite . One is by works, and the other is by faith.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Unless you were born jewish by race, you cannot convert to judaism and be a christian, it is impossible.

 

[Jacob]

Of course, we are saved "that the righteousness of the law wou=edl be fulfilled in us" who walk after the Spirit. But observing passover is not obeying God, since we no longer observe passover since Christ came.



You are conflating two things. There is the Jewish race and there is the religion of judaism. You can't convert to the Jewish race. you are either born jewish or you are not.

As far as religion is concerned, you are either practicing christianity or practicing judaism. they are two different methods of attaining righteousness that are opposite . One is by works, and the other is by faith.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Unless you were born jewish by race, you cannot convert to judaism and be a christian, it is impossible.

I was not born a Jew. It is possible to convert to Judaism or to become a proselyte. You don't have to cease to be a Christian to do so. Neither Judaism nor Christianity is about salvation by works, only by faith. The old covenant includes the law, the Law of Moses, God's Law. There is also the new covenant. People do observe Passover after the coming of Christ. I observe Passover.

 

[Derf]

Does anyone have what authority. I believe you are saying a judge does. You are not the judge. Don't think the judge wants you to kill anyone.

Sigh. Do you see anything about me in my last post? Or in my previous post? Why do you keep inserting me into these questions?

I am assuming you believe that the death penalty can be in place in the new covenant since the coming of the new covenant, but how? Is the new covenant only for believers? Is it against the death penalty? Is it against the death penalty for believers (new covenant or otherwise (old covenant))? Since forgiveness is in Christ would a non-believer be tried and killed?

I think the death penalty should still be in effect. The death penalty had a purpose, to remove the evil from the midst of the Israelites (See Lev 20). Banishment is also a possibility, but where do you send a murderer where they can't murder someone else? Prison might be an option, but it isn't one talked about in the Torah, which I thought was one of your standards.

Paul allowed for the death penalty to be used by governing authorities in Rom 13:3-4, and he didn't distinguish between believers or non-believers, but between the workers of good and the workers of evil. You don't really use a sword to bring people to Christ to receive His forgiveness--it's used to kill people, and Rom 13:4 says that rulers doing that are doing God's work ("For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.")

Also, would or is a sentence ever for death? Or, a punishment of time in jail? What is a sentence? Is a sentence ever for death? What is a sentence?

Are you asking whether anyone should ever be sentenced to death? My opinion is stated above. Or are you asking if "sentence" can mean death? I think wikipedia is fairly clear about that one (see here):
"The sentence is referred to as a death sentence."

 

[Jacob]

Sigh. Do you see anything about me in my last post? Or in my previous post? Why do you keep inserting me into these questions?

I was taking issue with your statement about avenging death because it appeared to come from you.

I think the death penalty should still be in effect. The death penalty had a purpose, to remove the evil from the midst of the Israelites (See Lev 20). Banishment is also a possibility, but where do you send a murderer where they can't murder someone else? Prison might be an option, but it isn't one talked about in the Torah, which I thought was one of your standards.

I have nothing to do with prisons in the United States of America, where I am a citizen. I respect Torah, which is God's instruction to us, His word, and the Law of the nation of Israel. You and I have mentioned courts which have precedent over the avenger of blood, and I mentioned that there must be a judge. This is all if we have old covenant law here in place in the United States of America. We have not established that we do.

Paul allowed for the death penalty to be used by governing authorities in Rom 13:3-4, and he didn't distinguish between believers or non-believers, but between the workers of good and the workers of evil. You don't really use a sword to bring people to Christ to receive His forgiveness--it's used to kill people, and Rom 13:4 says that rulers doing that are doing God's work ("For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.")

Are you asking whether anyone should ever be sentenced to death? My opinion is stated above. Or are you asking if "sentence" can mean death? I think wikipedia is fairly clear about that one (see here):
"The sentence is referred to as a death sentence."

Are you saying you believe a judge can sentence a person to death?

In terms of punishment, is anyone ever sentenced to prison? This has to do with how the word sentence is used.

Again, we need to answer the question about if the new covenant is different from the old covenant in regard to capital offenses or civil law.

 

[Derf]

I was taking issue with your statement about avenging death because it appeared to come from you.

I know, but I'm not advocating for ME to avenge death, because I don't have any reason to. I have heard those whose family members have been murdered seek for some kind of retribution--the avenger laws in the Torah make me think that is not only a natural response, but also somewhat inspired by God. To what extent it is supposed to have been abrogated with the New Covenant is up for discussion.

I have nothing to do with prisons in the United States of America, where I am a citizen. I respect Torah, which is God's instruction to us, His word, and the Law of the nation of Israel. You and I have mentioned courts which have precedent over the avenger of blood, and I mentioned that there must be a judge. This is all if we have old covenant law here in place in the United States of America. We have not established that we do.
Are you saying you believe a judge can sentence a person to death?

You mean legally or morally? Legally a judge (or a jury, depending on which state you are in) CAN sentence a person to death. And there are decent arguments that say it might be immoral for a judge NOT to do so in some circumstances.

In terms of punishment, is anyone ever sentenced to prison? This has to do with how the word sentence is used.

Again, we need to answer the question about if the new covenant is different from the old covenant in regard to capital offenses or civil law.

And whether our "covenant" in some way is supposed to impact any part of civil or criminal law in non-Jewish nations.

 

[Jacob]

I know, but I'm not advocating for ME to avenge death, because I don't have any reason to. I have heard those whose family members have been murdered seek for some kind of retribution--the avenger laws in the Torah make me think that is not only a natural response, but also somewhat inspired by God. To what extent it is supposed to have been abrogated with the New Covenant is up for discussion.
You mean legally or morally? Legally a judge (or a jury, depending on which state you are in) CAN sentence a person to death. And there are decent arguments that say it might be immoral for a judge NOT to do so in some circumstances.
And whether our "covenant" in some way is supposed to impact any part of civil or criminal law in non-Jewish nations.

A family might want a death to be avenged, but if it is possible it is by the courts. Again, no one should take matters into their own hands. This is personal vengeance, not leaving room for the wrath of God.

The Law of Moses is associated with the old covenant and can be referred to as God's Law, or the Law of God.

Discussion about what is entailed in the new covenant or what is involved in the new covenant and if there is new covenant law, no law, or if the Law of Moses (old covenant law) remains would be and probably is healthy discussion. Salvation can even be for those who have been sentenced by the courts.

You mentioned non-Jewish nations. Observance of Torah can be religious (by religion, as religion) without civil law (and punishment) being involved. A new covenant believer who is against capital punishment, for example, can observe the law for righteousness while still relying on Jesus for his righteousness (our righteousness because of His righteousness).

Are you a United States Citizen? Do we have old covenant law? Our nation was formed after the new covenant came to be in Jesus Christ. Is there such a thing as new covenant law? Does this answer the question of if we have law in conjunction with or as a result of a covenant (old, new, or otherwise) with God?

To walk in covenant relationship with God may not be a specific covenant and can involve forgiveness rather than retaliation. People need to know about the new covenant. Few know about the old covenant and the relationship of the old to us in light of the new.

 

[Choleric]

I was not born a Jew.

so you are not jewish by race

It is possible to convert to Judaism or to become a proselyte.

Yes, that is possible. Any person can practice judaism. That was once necessary since, as Jesus told the woman at the well that "salvation is of the Jews". At one time, salvation was only found by converting to Judaism. As Romans 10:4 states, righteousness was at one point through the law.

You don't have to cease to be a Christian to do so.

This is patently false. Salvation was of the jews, now it is not. Righteousness was once through the law, now it is through faith in Christ. There is more:

1Co_10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

You are either a Jew, a gentile or you are in the church, the body of Christ. You are one of the three, not two of the three.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

If you are saved, and in the Body of Christ, you are neither greek nor Jew. You cannot be a christian and an adherent of judaism

Neither Judaism nor Christianity is about salvation by works, only by faith. The old covenant includes the law, the Law of Moses, God's Law.

Like I said, Christ said that salvation was of the jews. He told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews:

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jesus confirmed what the Jews said about the samaritans, that worship was to be in Jerusalem. That is one work right there. And you no longer obtain righteousness through the law (Rom 10:4), which at one point is the only way you could obtain righteousness (Deut 6:25) because God was not giving the gift of imputed righteousness to the jews under the law.

There is also the new covenant. People do observe Passover after the coming of Christ. I observe Passover.

Christians do not observe the passover. There is no need as I have clearly demonstrated that scripture clearly says you are one or the other. you are kidding yourself. there is no scriptural support for any of your position unless I am missing something. Can you address the scripture i used and provide some of your own to support your position?

 

[Jacob]

so you are not jewish by race



Yes, that is possible. Any person can practice judaism. That was once necessary since, as Jesus told the woman at the well that "salvation is of the Jews". At one time, salvation was only found by converting to Judaism. As Romans 10:4 states, righteousness was at one point through the law.



This is patently false. Salvation was of the jews, now it is not. Righteousness was once through the law, now it is through faith in Christ. There is more:

1Co_10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

You are either a Jew, a gentile or you are in the church, the body of Christ. You are one of the three, not two of the three.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

If you are saved, and in the Body of Christ, you are neither greek nor Jew. You cannot be a christian and an adherent of judaism



Like I said, Christ said that salvation was of the jews. He told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews:

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jesus confirmed what the Jews said about the samaritans, that worship was to be in Jerusalem. That is one work right there. And you no longer obtain righteousness through the law (Rom 10:4), which at one point is the only way you could obtain righteousness (Deut 6:25) because God was not giving the gift of imputed righteousness to the jews under the law.



Christians do not observe the passover. There is no need as I have clearly demonstrated that scripture clearly says you are one or the other. you are kidding yourself. there is no scriptural support for any of your position unless I am missing something. Can you address the scripture i used and provide some of your own to support your position?

Salvation is of the Jews. The God of the Jews is the God to be worshipped, the only true God and therefore the God of the Gentiles as well being as there is only one God.

The new covenant is Jewish, of Judaism. It is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The expectation of the coming of the Messiah, Yeshua, was there and known. Now that He has come we have believers who are Jewish and believers who are not, we have Israel and the Gentiles, or Jew and Greek.

Salvation was never by the law. Worship of God has been by the law. Some Gentiles observe more of the Law than required, and some have converted to Judaism, previously Christian or Christian only and now Jewish or both. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism. I don't know why some have a problem with Judaism, as it is the true faith, like true Christianity can be as well being of the same and in worship of the same God. A Christian can be Jew or Gentile/Greek. If you look at the verse you quoted you can see that you are incorrect in your application, as one does not cease to be male or female a person just has equal status yet still fulfilling God given roles as a Christian, a member of the body of Christ the church.

Salvation was never by the Law, but it is of the Jews, and in Judaism and Israel we have the (past) coming of the new covenant in Yeshua the Messiah.

Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are both Biblical. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is one of the three annual feasts and Passover is often spoken of in relation to it, sometimes equivalently. Today is the fourteenth of the first month, Passover. But the Passover meal or seder and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (called Passover on most calendars) when it is eaten, are this upcoming evening. (The Feast of) Passover is sometimes the term used to refer to the entire seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.

1 Corinthians 5:7 NASB - Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

1 Corinthians 5:8 NASB - Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[PureX]

God has given us commands to observe. Those who do not (or have not (only Jesus is excepted here as He never sinned ever)) have transgressed God's Law and are in need of Jesus to be their Savior. In Him you can have salvation, the forgiveness of all your sins.

We have all already been forgiven. That's a done deal. We don't need to obey any religious laws, anymore. All we need to do now, if we wish to be saved from ourselves and each other, is to follow the path illuminated by God's loving spirit within us. But even if we don't, we are still forgiven. Unfortunately, we won't learn how to forgive ourselves and each other, and will thereby doom ourselves to our own kind of spiritual hell.

This is a warning, friend: the more you obsess about obedience to religious dogmas and laws, the more blinded you will become to the spirit of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity that exists within you. And the more you try to obey those old religious laws and dogmas, the less you will be able to be a human expression of God's divine spirit. And that's the pathway to disaster. That's the pathway of the Pharisees.

 

[chrysostom]

We have all already been forgiven.

based on what?

 

[PureX]

based on what?

Jesus' last words … "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

[chrysostom]

Jesus' last words … "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

this is why we need the church to help us understand what is in the bible

 

[PureX]

this is why we need the church to help us understand what is in the bible

I don't. Maybe you do. I understand it just fine. But then I'm old and have many years of experience with the artifice of symbolism, metaphor and poetic idealism.

I also understand that "the church" is just as likely to have lost it's way as anyone else is. Maybe more-so, since it's now a giant religious institution. So I know better than to take it too seriously.

 

[chrysostom]

I don't. Maybe you do. I understand it just fine. But then I'm old and have many years of experience with the artifice of symbolism, metaphor and poetic idealism.

I also understand that "the church" is just as likely to have lost it's way as anyone else is. Maybe more-so, since it's now a giant religious institution. So I know better than to take it too seriously.

here is a clue
-Jesus was talking about the ones who actually crucified Him
-they did not know who He was
-and
-I didn't even need the church to figure that out
-I just needed common sense

 

[PureX]

here is a clue
-Jesus was talking about the ones who actually crucified Him

Here is a clue for you: WE ARE ALL the ones who crucify him. Daily. With our obsession for self-righteous religiosity and our rejection of God's spirit of love and forgiveness, within us.

We are EXACTLY who Jesus was referring to!

 

[chrysostom]

We have all already been forgiven.

based on what?

 

[Jacob]

We have all already been forgiven. That's a done deal. We don't need to obey any religious laws, anymore. All we need to do now, if we wish to be saved from ourselves and each other, is to follow the path illuminated by God's loving spirit within us. But even if we don't, we are still forgiven. Unfortunately, we won't learn how to forgive ourselves and each other, and will thereby doom ourselves to our own kind of spiritual hell.

This is a warning, friend: the more you obsess about obedience to religious dogmas and laws, the more blinded you will become to the spirit of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity that exists within you. And the more you try to obey those old religious laws and dogmas, the less you will be able to be a human expression of God's divine spirit. And that's the pathway to disaster. That's the pathway of the Pharisees.

The Law is about love of God and love of your neighbor, God's instruction to you. Do you live by the Spirit of God?

Romans 8:1-4 NASB.

Salvation is not by the Law.