Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination

[j4jesus09]

Adam was created as innocent.

Innocent does not mean perfect. Adam was created as an individual with his own will. He was not part of the Godhead like Jesus.

God tested Adam and Adam failed.

No one can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws them. You cannot just decide that you are going to become a Christian. You must be called by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Some hear the Gospel and believe, some don't.

Adam was created innocent. I agree.
He was not apart of the divine nature like Jesus. Agree
God tested Adam and Adam failed. Agree, but God had to test Adam so Adam could see, what we all see today? REDEMPTION, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, JESUS. What type of understanding do you think Adam had in the garden? LIMITED. Since we are talking about innocence the best way relate to is a child. A child may know something but not understand. A child can be innocent and know not to do something but not understand. You can deceive a child easily.They tend to believe so easily. That is what the serpent did. Because of a child's innocence they can do wrong and not know and maybe sometimes they do know. BUT once they do wrong then they grow to UNDERSTAND why they shouldn't do it. Does that mean a child shouldn't be tested though because they are INNOCENT. How will the get understanding? Is God unjust because He tested man? A test is given, if you fail, you can try again. Is this not mercy being displayed by God? One of his attributes? There is a grander purpose than you are allowing God's word to demonstrate. Peace

 

[Totton Linnet]

Where does it say that someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell?

He doesn't but it DOES say "whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to His Son....etc"

How can a faceless, unknown group of people be predestined? He KNEW us.

The great mistake is to jump from this to suppose nobody else is saved....or to suppose as Augustine and Calvin did that all others must be damned.

But slate them if you will at least they were not so foolish as to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Robert Pate]

Adam was created innocent. I agree.
He was not apart of the divine nature like Jesus. Agree
God tested Adam and Adam failed. Agree, but God had to test Adam so Adam could see, what we all see today? REDEMPTION, MERCY, FORGIVENESS, JESUS. What type of understanding do you think Adam had in the garden? LIMITED. Since we are talking about innocence the best way relate to is a child. A child may know something but not understand. A child can be innocent and know not to do something but not understand. You can deceive a child easily.They tend to believe so easily. That is what the serpent did. Because of a child's innocence they can do wrong and not know and maybe sometimes they do know. BUT once they do wrong then they grow to UNDERSTAND why they shouldn't do it. Does that mean a child shouldn't be tested though because they are INNOCENT. How will the get understanding? Is God unjust because He tested man? A test is given, if you fail, you can try again. Is this not mercy being displayed by God? One of his attributes? There is a grander purpose than you are allowing God's word to demonstrate. Peace

I agree that Adam was tested and failed.

What Adam should have done is that he should have gone to the Lord and said... "The serpent told Eve that if we ate of the tree in the midst of the garden we could become as God's". But he didn't. I think that there was a spiritual problem between Adam and God. Adam thought that God was denying him of something that he did not have, like spiritual equality with God or knowledge. Is this not the crux of religion? To be like Christ and to know all spiritual things. Satan said, "I will be like the most high". There is this spiritual pride thing in religion. The Pharisees were proud, arrogant and religious. I think that Adam had a pride problem and wanted more.

 

[Robert Pate]

He doesn't but it DOES say "whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to His Son....etc"

How can a faceless, unknown group of people be predestined? He KNEW us.

The great mistake is to jump from this to suppose nobody else is saved....or to suppose as Augustine and Calvin did that all others must be damned.

But slate them if you will at least they were not so foolish as to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be conformed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[j4jesus09]

I agree that Adam was tested and failed.

What Adam should have done is that he should have gone to the Lord and said... "The serpent told Eve that if we ate of the tree in the midst of the garden we could become as God's". But he didn't. I think that there was a spiritual problem between Adam and God. Adam thought that God was denying him of something that he did not have, like spiritual equality with God or knowledge. Is this not the crux of religion? To be like Christ and to know all spiritual things. Satan said, "I will be like the most high". There is this spiritual pride thing in religion. The Pharisees were proud, arrogant and religious. I think that Adam had a pride problem and wanted more.

Now the statement what Adam should have done is gone to the Lord. Do you think that if he understood that he wouldn't have?
Okay, there was a spiritual problem? I agree there was a problem. Problem is Adam didn't have a freewill mechanism. He did what came NATURAL to him. He had a problem on the inside. A problem isn't a negative but can be worked into a positive.
How could Adam think God was denying him something if knew the TRUTH?
We should want to be like Christ and know all there is to know. What we cant know now we should just be content. This can be hard because we desire to understand more. There is nothing wrong with that but sometimes all we have is all we have right now. More will come later. I do think Adam was ENTICED into pride by the serpent. In my understanding the bible indicates Eve was deceived and so was Adam to. Both were deceived in different ways. No one who understands the truth will walk in deception. Some people hear of the truth and know about truth but to understand is different. Understanding is connected with wisdom and is not the same as just knowing something.

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

 

[beloved57]

There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be confomed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

Denial of scripture Truth ! Eph 1:3-5

 

[j4jesus09]

There is no individual predestination.

God does everything corporately, not individually.

Example: "Jesus has tasted death for every man" Hebrews 2:9.

"For whom he did foreknow" means that God knew that there would be people that would accept his Son Jesus Christ and that those who did, would be confomed to image of his Son Jesus Christ.

He does everything individually, and corporately. You might as well stop praying then if you think God doesn't hear just you. It's very personal and individual. No, my friend He has worked every individuals life out strategically and wonderfully. That is the beauty of it. Look at the prayers of David, and Jeremiah and many more. Friend, God is giving us these individuals for our learning. I mean God could list each and everyone's lives to see this but He has given us dozens to see the picture already. We don't need millions of people to see that God is working their lives out. If God gives us 10 people in the bible that he worked there lives out beforehand that is the foundation for us. God doesn't change!

 

[Robert Pate]

Now the statement what Adam should have done is gone to the Lord. Do you think that if he understood that he wouldn't have?
Okay, there was a spiritual problem? I agree there was a problem. Problem is Adam didn't have a freewill mechanism. He did what came NATURAL to him. He had a problem on the inside. A problem isn't a negative but can be worked into a positive.
How could Adam think God was denying him something if knew the TRUTH?
We should want to be like Christ and know all there is to know. What we cant know now we should just be content. This can be hard because we desire to understand more. There is nothing wrong with that but sometimes all we have is all we have right now. More will come later. I do think Adam was ENTICED into pride by the serpent. In my understanding the bible indicates Eve was deceived and so was Adam to. Both were deceived in different ways. No one who understands the truth will walk in deception. Some people hear of the truth and know about truth but to understand is different. Understanding is connected with wisdom and is not the same as just knowing something.

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

It is not a natural thing for man to sin against his maker. The consequences of sin are terrible. Adam ruined his life and the lives of all of his descendants. God was trying to protect Adam from the wiles of the devil when he told Adam not to eat of the tree. When Adam ate of the tree he broke God's law and threw in with the devil. God had no choice but to break company with him and expell him from the garden.

 

[Robert Pate]

Denial of scripture Truth ! Eph 1:3-5

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:9.

 

[j4jesus09]

It is not a natural thing for man to sin against his maker. The consequences of sin are terrible. Adam ruined his life and the lives of all of his descendants. God was trying to protect Adam from the wiles of the devil when he told Adam not to eat of the tree. When Adam ate of the tree he broke God's law and threw in with the devil. God had no choice but to break company with him and expell him from the garden.

First comes the natural then the spiritual. Man is similar to animal in following his senses. The senses of man believed it was good to followed the serpent. If Adam was full of the Spirit of truth and understanding he would not have listened to the serpent. I like how God doesn't have a choice but we do. Unless, God makes choices before we make ours. Hmmmm.

 

[beloved57]

God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Hebrews 2:9.

Invalid comment not supported by scripture!

 

[Robert Pate]

He does everything individually, and corporately. You might as well stop praying then if you think God doesn't hear just you. It's very personal and individual. No, my friend He has worked every individuals life out strategically and wonderfully. That is the beauty of it. Look at the prayers of David, and Jeremiah and many more. Friend, God is giving us these individuals for our learning. I mean God could list each and everyone's lives to see this but He has given us dozens to see the picture already. We don't need millions of people to see that God is working their lives out. If God gives us 10 people in the bible that he worked there lives out beforehand that is the foundation for us. God doesn't change!

Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

 

[j4jesus09]

Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

God has actively past, present and futuristically loved us my brother. He has always actively as already worked out our individual salvation. If you can't see God as individually working on you and I KNOWING you I before we knew him, then I would question who He is to you now? And what do you pray and talk to him about or how you were converted into the salvation of Jesus Christ. But however,what else can I say. Good discussion nevertheless. Blessings, love and peace toward you!

 

[beloved57]

Salvation is corporately because God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. All were included, not just some.

It is because of that, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

It is now that salvation becomes an individual thing. Those who hear the Gospel and believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" God sees them in Christ.

Invalid comments, those Christ died for He lived for and obeyed the Law for, so He believed for them! They inherit Eternal Life!

 

[Totton Linnet]

The rejection of bible predestiny and election is the direct cause of people wobbling in their faith. It is through rejecting these precious truths that folks started believing they had to work their ticket to heaven, and the other doctrine of probation, that salvation can be lost comes directly from rejecting predestiny and election.

It is perfectly simple, if God is not the sole cause of our salvation, then the cause must be in us or partly in us......what treacherous ground that is.

Me I want to be on the Rock.

 

[Robert Pate]

God has actively past, present and futuristically loved us my brother. He has always actively as already worked out our individual salvation. If you can't see God as individually working on you and I KNOWING you I before we knew him, then I would question who He is to you now? And what do you pray and talk to him about or how you were converted into the salvation of Jesus Christ. But however,what else can I say. Good discussion nevertheless. Blessings, love and peace toward you!

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ and be saved. God will not and cannot impose salvation on anyone. If you don't answer the call you cannot be saved. This is why many are reprobates, they resisted the call and the Spirit gave up on them.

In a real sense God is absent from us, even from those who are Christians. That is unless you fabricate some sort of a mystical relationship. The reason that God is absent is because we still posses these sinful Adamic bodies. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". So we don't live by sight, we live by faith, Romans 1:17.

 

[Robert Pate]

The rejection of bible predestiny and election is the direct cause of people wobbling in their faith. It is through rejecting these precious truths that folks started believing they had to work their ticket to heaven, and the other doctrine of probation, that salvation can be lost comes directly from rejecting predestiny and election.

It is perfectly simple, if God is not the sole cause of our salvation, then the cause must be in us or partly in us......what treacherous ground that is.

Me I want to be on the Rock.

Our salvation is not based upon what we do or on what we have become.

Our salvation is based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in with him. We are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Ephesians 2:6.

Our salvation is in a very safe and secure place at the right hand of God in heaven.

 

[beloved57]

Our salvation is not based upon what we do or on what we have become.

Our salvation is based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus.

When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in with him. We are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Ephesians 2:6.

Our salvation is in a very safe and secure place at the right hand of God in heaven.

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief!

 

[Robert Pate]

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief!

Only a blind fool would believe that God forces belief in his Son Jesus Christ.

What glory does that bring to God?

Why would the angels in heaven rejoice over that? Luke 15:7, 10.

 

[beloved57]

Only a blind fool would believe that God forces belief in his Son Jesus Christ.

What glory does that bring to God?

Why would the angels in heaven rejoice over that? Luke 15:7, 10.

Who said anything about forcing belief in Christ? Christ has believed for them that He lived and died for, He obeyed the Law of God for! How can someone who has obeyed Gods Law perfectly be a unbeliever?