Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

[Clete]

Absolutely wrong!

”Predestination” is God’s judgment determining the (eternal) end of those who do right and/or wrong, but God is NOT the cause of the wrongs His creatures willfully commit; nor does He find pleasure in all the death those wrongs produce.

However, God IS the sole cause of any righteousness done by His creatures, and these elect souls who manifest the good fruits of His Spirit, are judged and predestined to eternal life by and according to His good pleasure.

You apparently are erroneously convoluting cause & effects with God’s predestined judgments upon all such.

I can't tell if you're lying or if you're insane to the point that you don't notice when you've said something that contradicts your own doctrine.

You are on record as having affirmed belief in the following statements and whether you affirm them or not, these statements do accurately convey normal Calvinist doctrine. Doctrine, by the way, that cannot be rationally denied by anyone who accepts the notion that God is immutable.



“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...

...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)

 

[Nang]

I have studied & understand Calvin’s teachings in their full context.

You cherry-pick his words with the single intent to cast aspersions and darkness upon his views.

Too bad for you . . .

 

[Theo102]

I ignored nothing.

You ignored the issue of bad vowel pointing by posting the the definitions of the words as they are pointed in the Masoretic.

You missed the point.

If that was true you could say what your point was.

 

[blackbirdking]

​

If by Calvinism, you mean what Calvin taught, there is/was no reason for a sacrifice other than God's own pleasure. God predestined sin for His pleasure, He predestined suffering for His pleasure, He predestined damnation for His pleasure, and predestined that all these things that He predestined were/are very good. Hence, you, in your inability to comprehend/accept that God would do that and still be trustworthy, righteous, holy, loving, and caring about sparrows (which are worth much less than a man), yes you, should still trust Him because you just might be one of the "elect"; in fact, if you indeed do not trust Him, it's because your damnation is predetermined!​

You see, Calvin realized that people would ask question like you do, and ultimately, Calvinists say things like, "Who are you that you would question "Almighty God'?​

There is a host of 'watered down Calvinism', people who reject parts of what Calvin taught, but a TULIP Calvinist does not need a sacrifice except for God's pleasure; the rest falls into place to reveal the true character of a Calvinist's God.​

Ps. You mentioned Calvinism and a Calvinist might take offense that you singled them out; however, you have good reason to do so.​

​

IF GOD predestined some to eternal evil then HE also predestined them to suffer eternally in hell which contradicts scripture big time:​

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. [Implied answer expected: NO!] Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?​

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! ​

1 Timothy 2:4...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

Your contentions blaspheme HIS good name as proven by it contradicting scripture and the whole import of the meaning of our creation to be HIS Bride. And a WOE is in store for anyone who calls such speculations good! Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.​

​

My contentions? Where?

BTW, arguing Bible verses is quite futile.

It's like what you did with my post.

 

[blackbirdking]

​

Absolutely wrong!​

”Predestination” is God’s judgment determining the (eternal) end of those who do right and/or wrong, but God is NOT the cause of the wrongs His creatures willfully commit; nor does He find pleasure in all the death those wrongs produce....​

… You apparently are erroneously convoluting cause & effects with God’s predestined judgments upon all such.​

​

Ah, thanks for the correction; but are you saying that Calvin did not teach that Adam's eating of the tree was established or decided in advance by God?...​

​

​

God ordained Adam would be created a intelligent, sentient, and willful creature, free to obey God's Law and Commands, but that Adam would surely fail to fully do so. Not because God caused Adam to disobey, but because God ordained the last Adam, Jesus Christ alone, would perfectly fulfill all God's Law . . . to His glory.​

​

​

Thanks for giving your definition of "Predestination".

What do you mean by "ordained"?​

What do you mean by "fail"?

Did Calvin teach that Adam's eating of the tree was established or decided in advance by God?​

 

[Clete]

You ignored the issue of bad vowel pointing by posting the the definitions of the words as they are pointed in the Masoretic.

No, I did not!

If that was true you could say what your point was.

Okay, I'll repeat myself...


I didn't ignore anything. I don't know Hebrew but I can read a concordance and have over 400 years of English translations of the bible as evidence that you're wrong. (i.e. wrong about this vowel pointing issue.)

I can't find a single translation of the bible where the dozens of experts in biblical Hebrew ever once agreed with your contention (i.e. about vowel pointing). Not a single one!

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? - KJV

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it? - NKJV

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it? - ESV

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it? - ASV

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? - BRG

“The heart is more deceitful than anything else
and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? - CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)

“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick; - NASV

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? - NIV

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it? - RSV

Whether it's a major, well received and widely used translation or an obscure translation that no one has ever heard of before except on BibleGateway.com, they all universally translate it pretty much exactly the same way. (i.e. they all agree with the vowel pointing or lack thereof).

Could they all be wrong? Sure, they could be, but its rather unlikely and if you think I'm going to take your word for it, you'd better think again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


In other words, Theo, I am not impressed with someone making claims. You claim it should be translated one way (a way that makes no sense, by the way) and scores of other seasoned Old Testament Hebrew translators uniformly tell me otherwise. You're going to have to do better than just showing up with your claim in hand if you want to even begin to convince me that Jeremiah 17:9 (along with who know how many other passages) has been rendered incorrectly by every major English publication of the bible that has existed since the printing press was invented.

Clete

 

[ttruscott]

Jesus taught that only God is holy and good. Thus, for a sinner to be made holy, it is necessary that sinner be changed in the heart and MADE holy through the presence, power, and indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.

Excellent. you understand me perfectly.

And when the heart is FIRST made anew, the mind and will subsequently can choose righteousness over evil. One must be born again before he can exercise willful obedience.

Exactly - it is our rebirth that restores our free will by breaking our enslaving addiction to evil and it is by HIS grace through painful discipline of us that HE trains us to only chose the righteous choice by our restored free will, Heb 12:5-1.

Almost every argument attempted against Calvinism and the doctrine of Godly Election/Predestination, is really an argument FOR Universalism. And Universalism is untenable according to the Holy Scriptures.

ALMOST for sure because I for one do not accept the Calvinist interpretation of scripture and I am decidedly NOT a universalist because I also think it is an untenable INTERPRETATION of scripture! I am also a firm believer in election and predestination just not in the Calvinist definitions of them.

 

[Nang]

Excellent. you understand me perfectly.

Exactly - it is our rebirth that restores our free will by breaking our enslaving addiction to evil and it is by HIS grace through painful discipline of us that HE trains us to only chose the righteous choice by our restored free will, Heb 12:5-1.



ALMOST for sure because I for one do not accept the Calvinist interpretation of scripture and I am decidedly NOT a universalist because I also think it is an untenable INTERPRETATION of scripture! I am also a firm believer in election and predestination just not in the Calvinist definitions of them.

I am always glad to find areas of agreement with other posters!

Unfortunately, much of "Calvinism" is misrepresented on TOL by those who are not "Calvinists".

More accurately, I am of the Reformed Faith, which hold to the premises of the original Protestant believers (e.g. Luther, Calvin, Beza, Zwingli, etc) who broke from the errors of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Lon]

If Calvinism is true, there's no reason for Christ's (or any, for that matter) sacrifice to God.

This is declarative, sure. It must be not just demonstrable, but 'clearly' demonstrable. I've to date, not seen that proverbial nail. Wonderful claimed it in thread. Declarations are not scriptures nor a demonstrable grasp of them. I find this kind of theology generally two-dimensional (why I've a few on my iggy, they just cannot 'demonstrate clearly' thus pronounce, hiding their inability or stubborn refusal at scriptural discussion. Scripture really is is the only foundation. All else besides God is sinking sand. I'm very adamant that our respective theologies aren't the end-all. Our hold, grasp, and championing scriptures is. The reason for a Savior, in the Calvinist Bible (or anybody else's) needs to be: Because without Him I'd have been lost. It might preclude "you weren't lost so why did you need HIm?" It seems that is the OP premise. The answer for all of us yet, is because this is how God chose to do it. On this particular 1) I don't believe in linear time, but by dynamic time. Many Calvinists will argue too, from linear time and thus their theology is affected by the limitation whether they believe time is created or not. I do believe time is a property of only a physical universe. All we see is physical and we tend to be caught up, as physical creatures, thinking that everything is like we perceive and not as an incorporeal being exists. God is Spirit. No world, no space, no universe, no time. It definitely is a physical property. Movement is required for time to have meaning (different thread, but important for the difference here).

2) God used the Lord Jesus Christ, whether you are Calvinist or Arminian or other, to change us from life to death. 'We' are caught in time. If such is of no-time-consequence to God, for us, it is but realized as He interacts with us in it. An incorporeal being can interact with time, even though it is a proper of what He made, rather than a property of His being. I've likened this in the past like my fish tank. I'm not 'wet' but live on dry land. However, whenever I interact with my fish, I am wet. Isomuch as God consistently interacts with us, being everywhere, He is subject to time, but not by His incorporeal nature.

 

[Lon]

No it does not... Far far too many old style and modern Calvinists define sovereignty as "nothing happens without it being caused to happen by GOD." No, such whitewash cannot stick to Calvinism, a whited sepulcher.

Nor can your particular theology apart from Calvinism. It really doesn't matter and isn't Calvinist-specific. Calvinists simply see an inevitability that other systematics manage to obscure for themselves. The problem is, such NEVER disappears. I can always see the same dilemma for them. It is never just Calvinist-specific. Never. Not once. Not even in Open Theism which tries the hardest to avoid it. It simply does not. Calling Calvinism the 'white-washed sepulcher is simply name-calling, not theology done well. It is scape-goating something you hate but are completely unable to get away from in your own theology. Explain your position for a moment, whichever it is, and I'll show you.

It seems to me that you also suspect such mitigation is wrong because you use a very stilted meaning of ordain:
Dictionary.com: verb (used with object): ORDAIN
- to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon.
- to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.:to ordain a new type of government.
- to decree; give orders for: He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted.
- (of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine: Fate had ordained the meeting.

verb (used without object)
- to order or command:

Or that others over-extend the meaning? Words mean something. The only group I know of that purposefully embraces God's lack of knowledge, are Open Theists (maybe Mormons as well). They simply rob God of His foreknowledge to try and avoid something uncomfortable. Let me state that again: They find a lack in God, for the ONLY and simple reason that 'they' find the alternative uncomfortable. They saw the challenge I give above and simply chose "God doesn't know" as their answer. They don't believe God knew where Adam was when he was hiding in the Garden and had no idea the serpent was tempting Adam and Eve. He is not omniscient nor omnipresent in their understanding and grasp of scriptures. All other theologies cannot escape (nor they) the inevitable. The Open Theist just 'doesn't want to think about it' so theology stops where they try to cut it off: God's attributes. They never logically escape the same problems, however because eventually, in loving their Savior and God, and reading scripture, they have to face what they have tried to avoid. Questions like these are unavoidable. They cannot be eliminated, in any theology that deals truly with the scriptures. Perhaps those who believe the Ten Commandments are rather "Ten strong suggestions" and that we must take most of the Bible as allegorical are the ones who completely escape because they are making it up at they go at that point.

GOD did NOT decree; give orders for or destine or predestine or order or command any evil to come into existence by ay method whatsoever. Every doctrine based the least on the idea that HE did decree evil is blasphemous, based upon a lie...

imCo

Declarative, again. Show me from scripture. If you would post it, we could see if any Calvinist (or any one else) agrees with it. The simple declarative is like the proverbial 'mic drop' and has no weight or bearing on this thread. I've a inclination, as I've had this conversation in the past, that there is rather a scriptural idea in your head that doesn't jive with something a Calvinist said. I do believe Calvin explains well in Institutes what he means by terms, but often these get lost in translation. Such, I think, is true here. If you deny God's omniscience, this would be helpful upfront at this point for discussion, and thanks. Let me give a couple scriptures I wholly believe and adhere to: 1 John 1:5 James 1:13

Let me start there: Does any Calvinist deny the above scripture?

 

[Theo102]

No, I did not!

You ignored it by not taking it into account when you made your argument. You simply referred to a concordance without considering that I might be right.

Okay, I'll repeat myself...

Let's see if you're capable of addressing the point, then.

I didn't ignore anything. I don't know Hebrew but I can read a concordance and have over 400 years of English translations of the bible as evidence that you're wrong. (i.e. wrong about this vowel pointing issue.)

Which is of course a blatant straw man when the condordance is wrong becuase it treats the vowel pointing as authoritative.
You ignored my argument because you thought your appeal to authority fallacy meant something.

I can't find a single translation of the bible where the dozens of experts in biblical Hebrew ever once agreed with your contention (i.e. about vowel pointing). Not a single one!

Appeal to authority fallacy.

Standard translations deleted.

Whether it's a major, well received and widely used translation or an obscure translation that no one has ever heard of before except on BibleGateway.com, they all universally translate it pretty much exactly the same way. (i.e. they all agree with the vowel pointing or lack thereof).

Again this argument fails if the vowel pointing is wrong.

Could they all be wrong? Sure, they could be, but its rather unlikely and if you think I'm going to take your word for it, you'd better think again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So you're rejecting my argument on a fallacy, when my argument imples that the Creator values natural justice rather than the standard implication that he gave his creations defective reasoning abillites (In Hebrew idiom the heart is the seat of the intellect).

The concordance entries for the same words with different vowel pointing:

https://theologyonline.com/forum/pol...37#post2736237

The other example of bad vowel pointing - the forum's profanity filter replaced the letters a, s, s with ***.

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/wild_***_2003.htm

In other words, Theo, I am not impressed with someone making claims. You claim it should be translated one way (a way that makes no sense, by the way) and scores of other seasoned Old Testament Hebrew translators uniformly tell me otherwise. You're going to have to do better than just showing up with your claim in hand if you want to even begin to convince me that Jeremiah 17:9 (along with who know how many other passages) has been rendered incorrectly by every major English publication of the bible that has existed since the printing press was invented.

Clete

And back to your appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[Clete]

You ignored it by not taking it into account when you made your argument. You simply referred to a concordance without considering that I might be right.

You are making me angry.

I did not ingore anything.

A made no appeal to authority, I presented testimony from relevant witnesses. You're here presenting yourself as some sort of expert in Hebrew, at least enough to say that every other expert who has ever published a translation of the bible got it wrong.

The fact that they all disagree with you is totally 100%n valid evidence that you are wrong.

More importantly, I've not rejected your argument on the basis of anything because you haven't ever made an argument. Claims are not arguments and I've now three separate times told you that extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence, which, instead of responding to by providing any evidence, you just keep accusing me a lying which means I no longer care what you think.

Good bye.


Go ahead., go tell all your friends how you "won" by being so annoying and stupid that your opponent no longer cared to read your posts. Great tactic! Hope you're proud of yourself!

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

You're here presenting yourself as some sort of expert in Hebrew, at least enough to say that every other expert who has ever published a translation of the bible got it wrong.

The fact that they all disagree with you is totally 100% valid evidence that you are wrong.

Don't you just love it when they discover one word, shoot, one letter, that overturns not only all translations, but a couple thousand years of sound doctrine, at many seminaries? This never seems to register with God's special little creatures, of these cults of such evil doctrines of man.

Go ahead., go tell all your friends how you "won" by being so annoying and stupid that your opponent no longer cared to read your posts. Great tactic!

It really is the case, the more they present all their doctrines of evil men blather, page after page, light on scripture, heavy on blather, if any scripture it's never helping them, even crude contradictions, you know, duh, but, anyway, the more they blabber away, the more legendary they believe their arguments are. And I don't know about you, but I just see them going full throttle silly, falling further down the rabbit hole. One thing is certain: it's a lost cause, if you actually think you're going to reform any of these with truth. (Ironic, isn't it, they call themselves Reformed?)

At this point, I'm thinking remedial education. There is an off chance some Calvinist here achieves a modicum of reading comprehension. If nothing else, there are adult literacy courses. I'm not saying the Lord will zap them with irresistible education, but possible for them to get drawn to a classroom? So, just in case, being the word of God and all, not the silly doctrines of some twice dead tare, this scripture seemed worth repeating, scripture a child can understand. Maybe refer them to some 10 year old for tutoring, that's actually of the Spirit of Christ?

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[ttruscott]

GOD did NOT decree; give orders for or destine or predestine or order or command any evil to come into existence by ay method whatsoever. Every doctrine based the least on the idea that HE did decree evil is blasphemous, based upon a lie...

imCo

Declarative, again. Show me from scripture.

Ever verse that reveals the character of GOD supports my contention. Any Person who is perfect in love, in righteousness and in justice cannot create anyone already predestined to a hell of eternal suffering as that is NOT loving nor kind nor righteous nor just...unless the meaning of these words is perverted. The definitions of these attributes make specious any activity on HIS part as defined as a predestination to hell before creation. The belief in HIS character as holy demands the rejection of beliefs held to be true that in essence deny HIS holiness. The lack of rejection has obviously been reconciled by doublethink that both HIS holiness and HIS predestination of some to hell before their creation are somehow true at the same time and that if we talk in theo-babble long enough we'll figure it out.

People often decide on the truth of a doctrine then use that doctrine as their standard of truth to define their understanding of GOD as someone who would support that doctrine rather than coming to know GOD and who HE is then using that as the standard for understanding the doctrines of HIS purposes for us in creation and in life. Not just eisegesis but a backwards sisiegesie...

 

[Clete]

Don't you just love it when they discover one word, shoot, one letter, that overturns not only all translations, but a couple thousand years of sound doctrine, at many seminaries? This never seems to register with God's special little creatures, of these cults of such evil doctrines of man.



It really is the case, the more they present all their doctrines of evil men blather, page after page, light on scripture, heavy on blather, if any scripture it's never helping them, even crude contradictions, you know, duh, but, anyway, the more they blabber away, the more legendary they believe their arguments are. And I don't know about you, but I just see them going full throttle silly, falling further down the rabbit hole. One thing is certain: it's a lost cause, if you actually think you're going to reform any of these with truth. (Ironic, isn't it, they call themselves Reformed?)

At this point, I'm thinking remedial education. There is an off chance some Calvinist here achieves a modicum of reading comprehension. If nothing else, there are adult literacy courses. I'm not saying the Lord will zap them with irresistible education, but possible for them to get drawn to a classroom? So, just in case, being the word of God and all, not the silly doctrines of some twice dead tare, this scripture seemed worth repeating, scripture a child can understand. Maybe refer them to some 10 year old for tutoring, that's actually of the Spirit of Christ?

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"irrestistable education" !!!! :rotfl:

That made my day! Thank you for that!

 

[Lon]

Ever verse that reveals the character of GOD supports my contention.

Declarative again. You DON'T GET TO be the decider on this particular. You are compensating for something. A lack of scripture knowledge? THAT, my friend, isn't even the mark of a cult. They at least know their own scripture proof-textings.

Any Person who is perfect in love, in righteousness and in justice cannot create anyone already predestined to a hell of eternal suffering as that is NOT loving nor kind nor righteous nor just..

As if you, in your fallen state, know what love is? I heard a singer say "my God doesn't hate gays" and then proceeded to produce a music video where bondage, leather and a lot of other unloving portrayals were given as if they had anything at all to do with love. It isn't about your knee-jerk reaction to things you particularly hate or find disagreeable. The Pharisees had severe knee-jerk reactions to the message of Jesus Christ. They were wrong. Just being angry and indignant and gnashing their teeth didn't do it for them. You seem like a guy who emotes a lot, thinks not-as-much. I'll have to place you on ignore as someone who simply cannot be reasoned with nor is open to whatever scripture has to say. Contrasted: Christ and His Apostles used scriptures to answer false doctrine. Declarative is simply you deciding without sufficient demonstration, that you in your scripture prowess or lack-there-of, all by yourself except the where others flock to 'feel comfortable' in ignorance, choose to simply hide your head in the sand. What do the scriptures say? I don't care about banter or declaratives. It means nothing. It is just puffing up and posturing. I get the hackles thing. I get the 'detest' but often never see a clear 'reasoned' reason why. It is most often just "I don't like it!" Okay. This thread is fine for that, but I can't talk to someone until they emote less and are ready to delve into scriptures.

unless the meaning of these words is perverted.

The definitions of these attributes make specious any activity on HIS part as defined as a predestination to hell before creation. The belief in HIS character as holy demands the rejection of beliefs held to be true that in essence deny HIS holiness. The lack of rejection has obviously been reconciled by doublethink that both HIS holiness and HIS predestination of some to hell before their creation are somehow true at the same time and that if we talk in theo-babble long enough we'll figure it out.

:nono: This is a declarative again. You are making a judgement call and without any further information, just being judge and jury. Again, I get emoting. You've done this before but until you turn your emotion off, and come ready to think, there is no way there can be a meeting of minds or can iron sharpen iron. This thread isn't even about your chosen pet peeve. It is asking only why Jesus had to die, according to one's specific understanding (right or wrong) of Calvinism.

People often decide on the truth of a doctrine then use that doctrine as their standard of truth to define their understanding of GOD as someone who would support that doctrine rather than coming to know GOD and who HE is then using that as the standard for understanding the doctrines of HIS purposes for us in creation and in life. Not just eisegesis but a backwards sisiegesie...

I already asked about 3 scripture passages. Let me try yet again:

Romans 9:11 What does it say? Forget that we are in contest. I'm not asking that. ALL I'm am asking is for a short explanation of what it actually says. This is God talking. What is He specifically saying?


Continuing: Romans 9:14 Have you ever heard any Calvinist ever say that God is unrighteous? Ever? Ever? (yes or no will suffice here)


Romans 9:15 Ttruscott, does THIS verse, in your bible (not just mine) make God evil? You and every other anti-Calvinist speak against this verse strongly and adamantly, as far as I understand. Is it true? Do you speak against this verse? If not, for the love of God, explain it to me, please and thank you.


Further Romans 9:16-20 Does it really REALLY say God hardened Pharoah AND 'for this purpose'???? Forget Calvinism for a moment. Let's talk "Paul" for a moment. Did Paul really just say this? Further: If someone believes this, and in so doing aligns with a Calvinist (I do), then does that make them a Calvinist? Why or why not? You may, right here, ruin my Calvinism for me if you can say yes then explain 'no' to the latter. Thanks. -Lon

 

[Theo102]

You are making me angry.

Yeah, I get that a bit when people are unable to argue the point.

I did not ingore anything.

If that were true you would have looked at the words without the vowel pointing and admitted that some of the concordance descriptions support my point.

A made no appeal to authority, I presented testimony from relevant witnesses.

Assuming that they are experts doesn't help your case when they don't question the reliability of the vowel pointing. The point is that credentials don't trump facts and reason.

You're here presenting yourself as some sort of expert in Hebrew, at least enough to say that every other expert who has ever published a translation of the bible got it wrong.

I obviously have made no claim of expertise. You don't have to be an expert to recognise a case of the emperor's new clothes or that there's a problem with the vowel pointing.

The fact that they all disagree with you is totally 100%n valid evidence that you are wrong.

The don't disagree because they have had no opportunity to address the argument that their assumption about the reliability of the vowel pointing is not valid.

More importantly, I've not rejected your argument on the basis of anything because you haven't ever made an argument.

More denial. I've made it clear the my argument is that unreliable vowel pointing means that concordance descriptions are unreliable.

Claims are not arguments and I've now three separate times told you that extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence, which, instead of responding to by providing any evidence, you just keep accusing me a lying which means I no longer care what you think.

I've never accused you of lying, you retard.

 

[blackbirdking]

I'm not a Calvinist, but it does say in Romans 8:29 that those God foreknew He also predestined, justified and glorified. I think there could be a place for free will, but it seems to me that a lot of what's at the heart of Calvinism is proved true by scripture.

Not all?​

 

[Clete]

Yeah, I get that a bit when people are unable to argue the point.

You're the one who never made an argument. You made a claim that I countered with other claims by dozens of other people who are at least as expert as you are in the Hebrw language.

Your response was to ignorantly call it an appeal to authority as though I'm not allowed to take anyone's word but your own as an authority on the translation of the bible.

If that were true you would have looked at the words without the vowel pointing and admitted that some of the concordance descriptions support my point.

So once again, you accuse me of lying.

I am not obligated to argue the way you desire for me to argue and when I don't accept your premise it is not the equivalent of ignoring that premise.

On the contrary, I presented the EXACT SAME SORT OF EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED!!!!

The difference between what I've presented is that there are dozens of exemplars that corroborate their translations and you are sitting there by yourself making claims about false translations without presenting one iota of evidence that anyone got a single iota of the Hebrew wrong.

Assuming that they are experts doesn't help your case when they don't question the reliability of the vowel pointing. The point is that credentials don't trump facts and reason.

You've presented zero evidence that they haven't looked into any issues having to do with vowel pointing! You haven't even shown a shred of evidence that you know anything about what your claiming much less that you know more than they do!

There are literally dozens of translations of the bible into English many of which have stood the test of time and all of which employed dozens of language experts over many months and years concentrated on doing nothing else other than translating the bible into English and all of which translate the passage pretty much exactly the same way and all of which stands as collective expert witness testimony that you do not know what you're talking about.

Not to mention the fact that your proposed translation makes exactly zero sense!

I obviously have made no claim of expertise. You don't have to be an expert to recognize a case of the emperor's new clothes or that there's a problem with the vowel pointing.

Well isn't that just perfect. Not only are you here to tell us all that every confirmed expert in ancient Hebrew that participated in the translation of the bible into English got it wrong but now you're openly admitting that you are not any sort of expert!

That on top of the fact that you've presented exactly zero evidence that this vowel pointing is even an issue worth looking at in the first place.

On what basis am I supposed to be taking you seriously?

The don't disagree because they have had no opportunity to address the argument that their assumption about the reliability of the vowel pointing is not valid.

So what is this supposed to be, some sort of new discovery that you, the admitted non-expert, has made that was unknown to every translator of the bible that has existed since the 16th century?

More denial. I've made it clear the my argument is that unreliable vowel pointing means that concordance descriptions are unreliable.

You have made no such argument. You have made this claim but that isn't at all the same as making an argument. To make an argument, you've have to provide evidence. So far, the only evidence that has been presented has been presented by me in the form of universally consistent expert testimony.

I've never accused you of lying, you retard.

When I tell you that I haven't ignored anything and then you insist on repeating the accusation over and over again, the implication is that I've lied about having not ignored you. Even after I've made it explicitly clear that I haven't ignored anything, you persist with making the accusation.

One of us is, in fact, a liar.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

"irrestistable education" !!!! :rotfl:

That made my day! Thank you for that!

You're welcome, but I fear I may have misled you, on second thought. When writing that, it hadn't dawned on me the education angle may be a real bust for the Calvinist. Surely, they'd just get all flustered over multiple choice exams. (This also makes one wonder what a Calvinist would do in a voting booth, just gawk at the ballot, looking all confused, and say, "That's not possible!"?) And has a Calvinist ever finished an IQ test? Then again, maybe they breeze through them, since the right answer doesn't matter, any answer sovereign. The questions just keep piling up!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Calvinists have no place. I figure in the celestial kingdom they'll make good accountants, showing the Lord how much money He could have saved on evangelism. And maybe next time skip all the pain and aggravation: create only good robots. Of course, this would be after they get over the shock of not finding Calvin on the throne. Well, if any of them get there, should say. There's this situation of many called and few chosen, you know. If the numbers are hugely on the side of predestined to irresistible evil, we have ourselves a Creator of evil in the main, right? A Holy God that, what, will not even tempt any man to evil, that rather prefers to create them evil? (Even when it's not math, the Calvinist is fuzzy. Guess I'd like to take back the accountants idea, too.) I don't see getting around that. It just seems, after having accused the Lord of designing a huge damned baby enterprise, before there were any babies, what will He say to the lying Calvinist? "Well done, thou good and faithful slanderer?"

Questions, questions...