Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

[Lon]

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These verses mean exactly what they say; nothing more, nothing less.​

None of these verses clearly state, without using human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation.​

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Why do you think they do?​

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So, 'raised' but not 'made to do?' It needs a bit more elucidation for me to grasp you entirely here.

When some 'scientist' declares, that according to science, the sun will not give heat and light, I feel the same way because someone in a cold basement believes him.​

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Not sure if you answered the 'why?' I was asking. It seems rather to be 'why' you might be one of a few on that note. My question was why give a Calvinist too hard of a time, when you have some sympathies at least, by a similar token.​

 

[Nang]

No​

What are "obedient perfections"? ​

You do not know, acknowledge, nor can you iterate the moral, legal, and spiritual accomplishments of Jesus Christ?

I can only conclude you have no saving Gospel to believe in or proclaim.​

 

[ttruscott]

Ps. 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Since HE cannot abide evil and abhors those who do evil HE cannot have created it since HE has no use for it and hates it...Evil does not please HIM!

 

[Nanja]

Since HE cannot abide evil and abhors those who do evil HE cannot have created it since HE has no use for it and hates it...Evil does not please HIM!

God hath pleased to Create His vessels of wrath fitted for destruction !


Rom 9:22-23

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Lon]

Since HE cannot abide evil and abhors those who do evil HE cannot have created it since HE has no use for it and hates it...Evil does not please HIM!

Just one disagreement (and I'm pretty sure one doesn't have to be Calvinist to disagree on this): Yes to everything but Romans 8:28, among other scriptures, seems like He can use evil for His glory. I'm not sure if it is a disagreement or need for clarity. In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

It really as if one is communicating with a tree stump, or some Chatty Cathy doll, pull the string and out comes a Calvin quote. Something I've always noticed, from all cults with these doctrines of men, is that they are non-responsive to very scripture that shreds their claims. I posted abundant scripture a couple times, which clearly and plainly destroys Calvinism, nothing the least ambiguous, even in one post highlighted what are clear scripture statements in red, that well put the lie to Calvinism, thinking a color contrast would aid what must be predestined to very meager reading comprehension skills.

I have him on ignore, so likely this is a correct assumption: Might as well be talking to a tree stump. I cannot talk with someone who doesn't want to talk about scriptures. You'll likely be next on my list

To be serious, the cults all have the lies and false doctrines of some sinful man or woman at the center, and, important to note, these false doctrines trump scripture in their minds. They are in the business of selling these false doctrines that supersede scripture truth, to them, therefore do not even feel obliged to reconcile the scripture they contradict, as they reject the truth. Of course, neither can they defend their lies with scripture, at best only cite some verse and twist it into a pretzel, with all their blather: the man blather is required, to inject the lies.

You weren't serious above? :think: There are heresies among all of our camps. I'm not sure how well-versed you are in Calvinism, let alone scriptures but you can ask if you'd care to do so. If not, you are entitled to your opinion, whether it is educated or lacking :up:

As I've mentioned before, there's a pattern right there in the false prophets' writings. It's all over threads here. A little scripture, a lot of blather, to try and twist the meaning of scripture. Not just the Calvinists, all cults do this. You'll notice this in their false prophets' writings, how what they're really doing is sprinkling scripture around in their lying doctrines, their doctrines of man, that, on closer examination, whole scripture context does not support. They can't simply list a page or two of scripture that backs their claims, that speaks for itself, ever, because their claims are lies. You'll notice scripture they have posted asserts nothing the Calvinist claims, for instance, right here in this thread, as if citing that God does His pleasure, or His omniscience, is the same as saying He, by design, created what must be a majority damned babies, which is, obviously, pure evil. There is not a scintilla Calvinism in the scripture they cite. Would it not probably make Satan cringe, the concept of damning most babies, before there were babies? (An important aside, you'll find the lying Calvinist can't account for the origin of evil, outside of HOLY God, Himself, at all. I think they want people to come to this conclusion.) It wouldn’t even dawn on them God’s sovereign will was to create man to make choices, as scripture is very clear on, cover to cover, man that can very easily, willfully resist God in their persons.

To date? Only Catholics (and not too harshly, they still have Calvinists in the RC) and Open Theists are the only ones who call Calvinism a cult/heresy. The Catholics, even after saying it is heresy, treat them similarly as they do the rest of Protestants: "Brothers in error."

So, you'll notice they see things in scripture that aren't there, at all, in the scripture they cite, and somehow seem oblivious to the fact that, if there were any doctrine of damned and saved robots, there would be pages of scripture asserting Christ died for a few good robots, not to take preaching too much to heart, as it isn't really even required, before a gleam in your parents' eyes, shoot, before even your parents, irresistibly zapped is irresistibly zapped: God made you a Presbyterian before there was darkness on the face of the deep and everybody else damned, just that He didn't get around to pointing this out until the 16th century, His publisher's first century or so deadline to get the New Testament out and all. The Lord meant to include that He's mainly having a bit of fun, complaining at the evil robots that can't help themselves, telling them to repent, when they can't, this His favorite sport these thousands of years, and everywhere scripture speaks to God wishing none perish, wishing that all men come to repentance, He dying for the sins of the world, this whosoever believeth stuff? Just kidding! By the way, I was, in fact, once told by a TULIP Presbyterian I was obviously damned, because I don’t see the glory of Calvin’s irresistible grace that only those with that grace can see, that I cheapened God’s capital ‘S’ Sovereignty with the thought I had anything to do with repenting and receiving Christ, therefore I am a bad robot, never to tiptoe through the TULIPs. (It was truly funny. Others chimed-in how they’d pray for me, and I’m thinking, “Say whut?! Pray for me? You just said I’m bad robot, since before the sun and moon!”)

So you don't understand Calvinism, really. That's good news. Some Calvinists do believe you are an organic robot. I don't really care, just care if I please God.

Anyway, they can't post plain scripture after scripture to support their claims, at all, because their claims are lies. They must be non-responsive, to anybody well versed in scripture truth, would avoid such confrontations with scripture, if they could. Plain scripture is like throwing holy water on the vampire sort of thing to them. What's so ridiculous is how they think they can contradict scripture with scripture, not even seeing they're, therefore, both saying that God is a liar, and that His word is not reliable. I think this is the devil's hook in it all, what amounts to tare business, the bottom line to try and impugn God's holiness, His integrity, His love and mercy, His justice, their false prophets going back to that same of old modus operandi, that same old con, in the Garden, "Yes, God hath said, but...".

:think: Not true. A shotgun of pet scriptures isn't exegesis, however. It is eisegesis. Whatever scripture says, yeah, that's what we should be believing and no matter how deep we are in, able to be made and molded by truth when we see it.

In any event, this is why the non-responsive, also why discussing anything with them on an honest scripture level or even a level of common sense reason is futile, as they will ignore the hard questions, the scripture, that smokes them out for what they are, that is, false prophets, liars, and, again, they cling to their lies as preeminent doctrines, have their cult leaders on the throne. I think the first mistake is listening to any of these clowns, with their -ists and -isms.

Asserting. There is no demonstrative scriptures regarding the OP against Calvinist answers at this point.

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided [into more corrupt denominations than Baskin Robbins has flavors]? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

You know something else, it really is such wickedness, how they have no problem adding false doctrines to the word of God, and taking away from the word of God, of the Holy Bible, despite:

Meaning?

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

Clete is an Open Theist. He doesn't agree this book is written about just any kind of heretic, but is a warning against those within a Jewish community. It may apply broadly as far as truth, but he doesn't agree with you on this nor a good many of your further scriptures. Me?

Let's look at 2 Peter 1:⁵ For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; ⁶ and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; ⁷ and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. ⁸ For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. ⁹ But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

2 Peter 1²⁰ Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. ²¹ For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

-Now let's read your passage:

2 Peter 2¹⁰ This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

-So, which 'false prophets' was Peter talking about? 1) first of all "prophets" They were saying they were divine in message. 2) they desired flesh and were not new creations in Christ.
2 Peter 2:11-22 continues to talk about a people who, in God's name, live for the flesh and the desires of the flesh.

Point? Be careful that the scriptures you attempt to apply to all circumstances, applies across-board. There are no prophets in Calvinism, nor do Calvinist perhaps less than any other denomination, partake in hedonism.

Matthew 6:24

Spoiler

No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Spoiler

Spoiler

[And no, for you inveterate common sense challenged, this isn't saying you can serve lies and the devil, because they aren't money.]

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Matthew 7:19-23 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, "Thus says the Lord GOD," when the LORD has not spoken.

Jeremiah 14:14 And the Lord said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds."

Jeremiah 23:21 I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Lastly, I don't know what sort of fool puts aside the word of God, for lies. At least Esau got a bowl of soup.

This isn't Bible study. It is concordance work and much of it doesn't apply. One day Clete will disagree adamantly with you upon the Open Theist premise so enjoy the short moment of peace and solidarity with him, but simply high-fiving in the schoolyard isn't Bible study, nor is proclamation, bible prowess. Try rather to engage with me over the above scriptures I chose to engage you with. Show, don't tell. If you can. -Lon

 

[blackbirdking]

So, 'raised' but not 'made to do?' It needs a bit more elucidation for me to grasp you entirely here.

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Will you explain how any one of your scriptures clearly states, without the aid of human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation? That's not what they are saying, so how are you interpreting them to talk about Adam?
For example:
"For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, And He ponders all his paths."
How does this clearly state that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation?
It quite plainly says otherwise. If I say the ways of my hound are in front of me, and I ponder all his paths, you would not assume that I know which of the paths in front of me my hound is going to take; as he goes I would pay attention to the way he is going. There is nothing to suggest that I knew his goings before he went.

 

[blackbirdking]

You do not know, acknowledge, nor can you iterate the moral, legal, and spiritual accomplishments of Jesus Christ?

I can only conclude you have no saving Gospel to believe in or proclaim.

Meanwhile:​

I'm waiting on your scriptures....​

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature", as you claimed.

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam would "surely fail", as you claimed.​

 

[Lon]

Will you explain how any one of your scriptures clearly states, without the aid of human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation? That's not what they are saying, so how are you interpreting them to talk about Adam?
For example:
"For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, And He ponders all his paths."
How does this clearly state that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation?
It quite plainly says otherwise. If I say the ways of my hound are in front of me, and I ponder all his paths, you would not assume that I know which of the paths in front of me my hound is going to take; as he goes I would pay attention to the way he is going. There is nothing to suggest that I knew his goings before he went.

Or vise versa? Can you show where "violating free-will" is ever a stated concern in scripture? I appreciate a call to the scriptures. TOL will never become a 'scriptures study/Bible study and analyzing' website, but really, only God's word never returns void. To me? No-brainer, we have to be doing more scriptures and I genuinely appreciate anybody going there.
"Is there a scripture, then," if I am catching your query, "that clearly says God knew Adam would fall?" Isaiah 46:10 as well as a few other scriptures say that God knows everything. There is no qualification for the Omniscient understanding, nor is it given that He knows 'less' than "all." That alone, to me, is sufficient else we'd certainly (wouldn't we?) see "And God knew most of what was going to happen." It stands, I believe, true, that if "all" given in scripture means 'everything' that we can deduce or even take implicitly from the statement, that God would have to have known. Some Open Theists argue "whatever is not 'knowable' cannot be known" but this 1) limits God to finite man and finite experience and 2) necessarily makes Him less than "all knowing."

John 8:58 not only conveys that the Lord Jesus Christ is, after study, clearly "I AM" but also clearly without time constraints. The verb tense for something the Lord Jesus Christ conveys as past "before Abraham was" Is present/future "am" (not 'was').

Meanwhile:​

I'm waiting on your scriptures....​

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature", as you claimed.

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam would "surely fail", as you claimed.​

I only know of the one I gave you where the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified 'before' the beginning of creation. While it may not suffice, it surely is strong language and demands, I think, a logical and meaningful progression. In Him -Lon

It is not an accident, this being an Open Theology website, that Calvinism must be subject to question because the two take entirely different cues from scripture. I wasn't a Calvinist before coming to TOL. Open Theism fairly forced me to admit that Calvinism had to be correct, logically, for me to maintain truths I'd found and held from scripture. I've often been told since that I'm not a Calvinist, but it at least is a starting point for discussion. I do get to TULIP different than most Calvinists, so I understand why I'm not counted there as often.

 

[Clete]

This isn't Bible study. It is concordance work and much of it doesn't apply. One day Clete will disagree adamantly with you upon the Open Theist premise so enjoy the short moment of peace and solidarity with him, but simply high-fiving in the schoolyard isn't Bible study, nor is proclamation, bible prowess. Try rather to engage with me over the above scriptures I chose to engage you with. Show, don't tell. If you can. -Lon

You're such a lying fool!

Oh how I wish for someone with a mind to disagree with me about Open Theism! I would so enjoy a rational discussion! A rational discussion about vertually anything important really but about Open Theism in particular! What an absolute treat that would be!

The high fiving in the school yard activity is what you're witnessing here in this thread between your moronic Calvinists who constantly say "amen" back and forth between your posts but never bother to directly address the arguments which allow nearly any actual child who plays in a school yard to understand that your blasphemous doctrine has been undone. The entire system of Calvinism is totally destroyed by even a cursory reading of Ezekiel 18 alone! I mean the whole entire theological construct is utterly demollished by one reading of that single chapter of the bible!

Of course the reason you feel justified in simply declaring your doctrine rather than doing any substantive defending of it is because there is no way to defend it! The only widely held belief I've ever come across that is more idiotically irrational is the belief that socialism is a good idea. But even the notion of building your government on the basis of theft and on the minldess premise that all private property is theft, I doubt beats out the lunatic stupidity that says one can be predestined to love someone or that a just God would punish a child for the sins of his parents.

I suppose that all of that stupdity is all of a kind really but the point is that for you to think that I turn on somoene merely because they disagree with me only shows that you're the one with issues. In short your a liar and a fool. You undermine someone else's character to cover up your own intellectual dishonesty and inherent stupidity. If anything else where the case, you'd make and respond to actual arguments.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

You're such a lying fool!

Oh how I wish for someone with a mind to disagree with me about Open Theism! I would so enjoy a rational discussion! A rational discussion about vertually anything important really but about Open Theism in particular! What an absolute treat that would be!

The high fiving in the school yard activity is what you're witnessing here in this thread between your moronic Calvinists who constantly say "amen" back and forth between your posts but never bother to directly address the arguments which allow nearly any actual child who plays in a school yard to understand that your blasphemous doctrine has been undone. The entire system of Calvinism is totally destroyed by even a cursory reading of Ezekiel 18 alone! I mean the whole entire theological construct is utterly demollished by one reading of that single chapter of the bible!

Of course the reason you feel justified in simply declaring your doctrine rather than doing any substantive defending of it is because there is no way to defend it! The only widely held belief I've ever come across that is more idiotically irrational is the belief that socialism is a good idea. But even the notion of building your government on the basis of theft and on the minldess premise that all private property is theft, I doubt beats out the lunatic stupidity that says one can be predestined to love someone or that a just God would punish a child for the sins of his parents.

I suppose that all of that stupdity is all of a kind really but the point is that for you to think that I turn on somoene merely because they disagree with me only shows that you're the one with issues. In short your a liar and a fool. You undermine someone else's character to cover up your own intellectual dishonesty and inherent stupidity. If anything else where the case, you'd make and respond to actual arguments.

Bad robot! You're in big trouble with Calvin, who sits in that celestial presbytery, at the right hand of God! You know, I'll bet you were a bad robot, condemned since before the before the foundation of the world. Or God's not sovereign, nor old English gold coins, mind you.

Can I get a good robot Amen, from the TOL Greek chorus?

 

[Clete]

Bad robot! You're in big trouble with Calvin, who sits in that celestial presbytery, at the right hand of God! You know, I'll bet you were a bad robot, condemned since before the before the foundation of the world. Or God's not sovereign, nor old English gold coins, mind you.

Can I get a good robot Amen, from the TOL Greek chorus?

I wonder if Lon realizes that he believes that God predestined every word I was to ever type on this website, that I was to win every debate any Calvinist ever engage me in and that he was predestined to belly ache and whine about it.

Oh! And before I forget...

:turbo: AMEN! :turbo:

 

[Nang]

Meanwhile:​

I'm waiting on your scriptures....​

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature", as you claimed.

Just one scripture that states, that God ordained that Adam would "surely fail", as you claimed.​

The entire Revelation of God in His written Word, teaches that Adam was created in the image of God, possessing the ability to live according to God's providence, truth, and order. All such were given from God to Adam via natural witness (creation - Romans 1:19, 20); inner conscienciousness of good and evil (Romans 1:21); promise and commands (Genesis 2:15-18, 24, 3:15-19).

The commands and Law of God are eternal. Adam was created responsible and accountable to God to obey God's Law, and the fact that he failed to do so never changed this human responsibility. This is the Covenant made between God and mankind.

The promises of God are eternal. Adam, Eve, and their seed were promised the remedy for their disobedience. In Genesis 3:15 the promise of a Savior, a Seed from womankind, would destroy the devil who instrumented the fall and corruption of humankind. This was the Covenant made between God and mankind.

This Covenant consisting of commands and promises is the Gospel message, first revealed in Genesis Chapters 1-3 and verified in Romans Chapter 1-3.

Throughout all of Holy Scripture this Covenant of God to Man is revealed and reiterated.

First, through the familial lineage from Seth to Noah (Genesis 4-8).

Secondly, through the national lineage of Israel and her prophets (Genesis 9 - Malachi 4).

Thirdly, by the fulfillment of this Gospel as revealed by the coming of the Word come in flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ. In Him, as all the N.T. reveals, all Covenant promise and commands have been finally and perfectly met and fulfilled.

Any scripture verse you could choose, out of the entire Bible, can be shown to reveal and verify the Everlasting Covenant of God.

Since God's purposes are eternal, and His Word is eternal, and His promises are eternal, there is no such thing as God not ordaining all that has occurred in time, in His very creation.

Saying that this theological view of the entirety of divine revelation, makes God the author of sin, is just a demonic distraction from TRUTH.

 

[Nang]

You're such a lying fool!

Oh how I wish for someone with a mind to disagree with me about Open Theism!

The reason intelligent and faithful members of TOL hardly ever enter into debate with you any more, is because you do not really reason, but instead resort to the insults shown above.

You do not reason with disagreement, as you claim you want, but ALWAYS resort quickly to calling those who make attempt to communicate with you, "stupid" and "liars."

I for one, do not bother with you anymore because of your emotional-driven abuses and insults against my faith in God's Holy Word.

I have little time left on this earth, and it would be a waste to spend time bantering with you . . .

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I wonder if Lon realizes that he believes that God predestined every word I was to ever type on this website, that I was to win every debate any Calvinist ever engage me in and that he was predestined to belly ache and whine about it.

Oh! And before I forget...

:turbo: AMEN! :turbo:

I don't know the answer to that. You'd think the Calvinist would be first to realize this, and pretty clear God's special little creatures can be real losers and should avoid typing (if they could...), as you point out. These questions are too big for me! I just wish Calvin would get God on the straight and narrow, wish He wouldn't be programming serial killers or Democrats, maybe could go back in time and unfoundation some, who've not yet foundated: fix His deflected sovereignator, in any case. And stop already with the holiness claims! Whatever algorithm got loaded into Hitler really sucked, and Satan, for that matter. I think if God could simply be weaned off taunting bad robots over all that sin they can't help, and stop this perverse game of telling people that are simply doing what bears do in the woods, as it were, to repent, to choose, if He were to concentrate less on sports and more on turning out good robots, everybody would be better off. Literally, those bad robots have been the death of Him, and who is to blame for that, bottom line, or not sovereign?

Fact is, Scientology makes more sense than Calvinism.

Hey! Like that smiley emoticon, that turns into a robot. How cool! Isn't that rather metaphorical of Calvin, coming as an angel of light? Anyway, many thanks for such a bang-up AMEN, though you had nothing to do with it, of course, predestined and all, and albeit a bad robot Amen, therefore disappointing it's not likely go on for at least a hundred more pages, like some sappy, tattered, chain letter from hell, glued to a Mobius strip.

Was just thinking, how does Calvin explain "good robots" being lying fools, anyway? And is one graced to be an idiot, that doesn't even understand some of the most basic scripture of all? The math just gets fuzzier and fuzzier...

To you Calvinists, don't think I'd short shrift you. And don't worry, nothing terrifying, like a whole page of scary scripture that may as well not be in your native tongue. This is just your usual verse fragment for the day, which I invite you to expound upon, in the usual 20,000 words, or less, of man and demon blather:

God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are.

No need for the whole verse, its number or chapter location, naturally, as all that would be irrelevant.

(Note this is not to predestine you to 20,000 words. That's 20,000 words or less for each verse, fragment thereof, or single Hebrew letter that proves God was lusting to make damned babies, to spend a few thousand years castigating, for the unmitigated audacity of being what He made them, and this the plan, before there were any babies. Or, if you wish, just thread bump and Amen each other, grateful to not be of the hellbent, common rabble, that get just what they deserve, for the hubris of also being born, before anybody was even born. Just revel in these your unfathomable, glorious depths! So, if you like, simply do the Calvin thread bump and grind, for the next 500 pages or more, tell each other how special you are, in your best imitations of holy speak...)

 

[Lon]

I don't know the answer to that. You'd think the Calvinist would be first to realize this, and pretty clear God's special little creatures can be real losers and should avoid typing (if they could...), as you point out. These questions are too big for me! I just wish Calvin would get God on the straight and narrow, wish He wouldn't be programming serial killers or Democrats, maybe could go back in time and unfoundation some, who've not yet foundated: fix His deflected sovereignator, in any case. And stop already with the holiness claims! Whatever algorithm got loaded into Hitler really sucked, and Satan, for that matter. I think if God could simply be weaned off taunting bad robots over all that sin they can't help, and stop this perverse game of telling people that are simply doing what bears do in the woods, as it were, to repent, to choose, if He were to concentrate less on sports and more on turning out good robots, everybody would be better off. Literally, those bad robots have been the death of Him, and who is to blame for that, bottom line, or not sovereign?

Fact is, Scientology makes more sense than Calvinism.

Hey! Like that smiley emoticon, that turns into a robot. How cool! Isn't that rather metaphorical of Calvin, coming as an angel of light? Anyway, many thanks for such a bang-up AMEN, though you had nothing to do with it, of course, predestined and all, and albeit a bad robot Amen, therefore disappointing it's not likely go on for at least a hundred more pages, like some sappy, tattered, chain letter from hell, glued to a Mobius strip.

Was just thinking, how does Calvin explain "good robots" being lying fools, anyway? And is one graced to be an idiot, that doesn't even understand some of the most basic scripture of all? The math just gets fuzzier and fuzzier...

To you Calvinists, don't think I'd short shrift you. And don't worry, nothing terrifying, like a whole page of scary scripture that may as well not be in your native tongue. This is just your usual verse fragment for the day, which I invite you to expound upon, in the usual 20,000 words, or less, of man and demon blather:

God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are.

No need for the whole verse, its number or chapter location, naturally, as all that would be irrelevant.

(Note this is not to predestine you to 20,000 words. That's 20,000 words or less for each verse, fragment thereof, or single Hebrew letter that proves God was lusting to make damned babies, to spend a few thousand years castigating, for the unmitigated audacity of being what He made them, and this the plan, before there were any babies. Or, if you wish, just thread bump and Amen each other, grateful to not be of the hellbent, common rabble, that get just what they deserve, for the hubris of also being born, before anybody was even born. Just revel in these your unfathomable, glorious depths! So, if you like, simply do the Calvin thread bump and grind, for the next 500 pages or more, tell each other how special you are, in your best imitations of holy speak...)

So, neither of you can use or engage scripture? Contrasts....

Romans 9 ALSO addresses "God made me do-it /made me this way."
Romans 9:1-12 Agreed. It is talking about not just Jacob and Esau, but the hearts of people who follow Spirit or flesh.

Malachi explains it and Paul certainly has this passage in mind BUT Paul goes to individuals in Romans 9:13 and doesn't stop talking about individuals regarding God's designs.

Romans 9:19 "One of you..." Romans 9:20-29 further explains, without wincing, that God is sovereign over men and their eternal destinies.

The only thing that matters is scripture. It'd be a complete waste of time arguing Calvinism, Open Theism, or any other denomination at this point. There is nothing to be gained by such fleshly posturing. 1 Corinthians 3:3 and I think, in this context, it applies without a lot of heavy exegetical lifting.

 

[Lon]

The reason intelligent and faithful members of TOL hardly ever enter into debate with you any more, is because you do not really reason, but instead resort to the insults shown above.

You do not reason with disagreement, as you claim you want, but ALWAYS resort quickly to calling those who make attempt to communicate with you, "stupid" and "liars."

I for one, do not bother with you anymore because of your emotional-driven abuses and insults against my faith in God's Holy Word.

I have little time left on this earth, and it would be a waste to spend time bantering with you . . .

Yes, that is why his is on my ignore. Above I posted yet again an opportunity to talk scriptures and love of Christ and men. Mark 12:30,31 To just Israel? :nono: Romans 13:9 1 Corinthians 13:3 Matthew 5:46 1 Peter 4:8

 

[Nang]

Open Theism is a new and radical version of opposition to historical Christianity that cannot stand up to the orthodox (biblical) Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

Thus and so, Christians still suffer the Open atheism feeble and constant divisional tactics of vicious and insulting “smack downs” of the true Gospel message of Jesus Christ being proclaimed amongst their very midst.

IOW’s, they have tried every insult in the book , but they cannot rid TOL of the TRUTH as we faithfully continue to bear witness of Him.

 

[blackbirdking]

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Or vise versa? Can you show where "violating free-will" is ever a stated concern in scripture? ​

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I understand what you are saying and I agree. That however, isn't what I mean; rather, that which God did in creating is "creation". When a man says that God created man with the ability to choose, and then he says that God could have prevented man, who was created with the ability to choose, from having the ability to choose, the man is making a contradictory statement about God's creation. God could not have prevented the man from having the ability to choose, while that same man is having the ability to choose.​

Calvinism states that Adam had free choice, "Hence the unskilful rashly infer, that man did not sin by free choice." ​

here

Calvinism states that God could have prevented Adam from sinning, " For, in the first place, it must be conceded, that God was not in ignorance of the event which was about to occur; and then, that he could have prevented it, had he seen fit to do so." ​

here

Calvinism asserts that Adam had the ability to choose, then proceedes to say that God willed the fall of man:​

"So far as the fall of Adam was the subversion of equity, and of well-constituted order, so far as it was contumacy against the Divine Law-giver, and the transgression of righteousness, certainly it was against the will of God; yet none of these things render it impossible that, for a certain cause, although to us unknown, he might will the fall of man. It offends the ears of some, when it is said God willed this fall; but what else, I pray, is the permission of Him, who has the power of preventing, and in whose hand the whole matter is placed, but his will?"​

here

Calvinism by doing so, affirms that Adam had the ability to choose to sin, and, that Adam had the ability to choose to not sin, and, that God could have prevented Adam from exercising that ability to sin; thereby, Calvinism has built a syllogism on a false premise. That's why I said a man cannot find Calvanism by reading the Bible. God could not have prevented Adam from sinning while Adam had the ability to choose to sin; unless of course, God can draw a square circle and you can find it to be so in the Bible.​

It was/is not God's will that Adam sinned/sin.


That's why I asked:

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How so? Simply provide one scripture that clearly states, without the aid of human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation.​

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Remember that by "creation" I'm not meaning the product, but rather the process and purpose of creating.

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I appreciate a call to the scriptures. TOL will never become a 'scriptures study/Bible study and analyzing' website, but really, only God's word never returns void. To me? No-brainer, we have to be doing more scriptures and I genuinely appreciate anybody going there.​

"Is there a scripture, then," if I am catching your query, "that clearly says God knew Adam would fall?" ​

Not yet; first things first.

Isaiah 46:10 as well as a few other scriptures say that God knows everything. There is no qualification for the Omniscient understanding, nor is it given that He knows 'less' than "all." That alone, to me, is sufficient else we'd certainly (wouldn't we?) see "And God knew most of what was going to happen." It stands, I believe, true, that if "all" given in scripture means 'everything' that we can deduce or even take implicitly from the statement, that God would have to have known. Some Open Theists argue "whatever is not 'knowable' cannot be known" but this 1) limits God to finite man and finite experience and 2) necessarily makes Him less than "all knowing."

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John 8:58 not only conveys that the Lord Jesus Christ is, after study, clearly "I AM" but also clearly without time constraints. The verb tense for something the Lord Jesus Christ conveys as past "before Abraham was" Is present/future "am" (not 'was').​

I only know of the one I gave you where the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified 'before' the beginning of creation. While it may not suffice, it surely is strong language and demands, I think, a logical and meaningful progression. In Him -Lon​

It is not an accident, this being an Open Theology website, that Calvinism must be subject to question because the two take entirely different cues from scripture. I wasn't a Calvinist before coming to TOL. Open Theism fairly forced me to admit that Calvinism had to be correct, logically, for me to maintain truths I'd found and held from scripture. I've often been told since that I'm not a Calvinist, but it at least is a starting point for discussion. I do get to TULIP different than most Calvinists, so I understand why I'm not counted there as often.​

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Thanks for the discussion.​

 

[blackbirdking]

Open Theism is a new and radical version of opposition to historical Christianity that cannot stand up to the orthodox (biblical) Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

Thus and so, Christians still suffer the Open atheism feeble and constant divisional tactics of vicious and insulting “smack downs” of the true Gospel message of Jesus Christ being proclaimed amongst their very midst.

IOW’s, they have tried every insult in the book , but they cannot rid TOL of the TRUTH as we faithfully continue to bear witness of Him.

You are still doing the same thing you did here:

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You do not know, acknowledge, nor can you iterate the moral, legal, and spiritual accomplishments of Jesus Christ?​

I can only conclude you have no saving Gospel to believe in or proclaim.​

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You continue to make statements just like the "Open Theists" except you are on the other side. I asked for scripture to support your claim:
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Where does the Bible say that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature"?​

Where does the Bible say that Adam was ordained to "surely fail"?​

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Because if you can show me such, then what I believe is wrong.

And you come off the wall with this:
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Does the Bible teach Adam was created an unconscious, ignorant, and unwilling robot?​

Does the Bible teach that the first Adam achieved the obedient perfections of the last Adam, Jesus Christ?​

To date, I'm waiting on scripture to support your claim, and you're still spouting off, without scripture.​

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I can only conclude you have no saving Gospel to believe in or proclaim.​

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As far as the gospel that I do not have "to believe in or proclaim", maybe you can answer this question since it doesn't require study and meditation:​

As a self-proclaimed Calvinist, can you tell any man that he can be saved?