Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

[Clete]

I thank you for this award, but must thank my very special parents, first, that made it possible for the world to be blessed with me. I love you Mommy and Daddy, wherever you've been all these years! I would also like to thank the Academy, thank all those at the Beverly Hills Straight Off the Couch Clinic, who've been with me through all eleven rehabs and nervous breakdowns. I would like to thank Jesus, my gardener, my new best friend during filming and love of my life these months, without whom I'd also not have known how to deal with all the serious property damage. I would also like to thank all my fans, that think of me all the time and love only me, but remember: you have to love yourself, first. Most of all, I'd like to thank my little dog, Fifi.

Though it's hardly possible anymore, in this thread, to be serious: thank you, Clete. It seems you like it when I have one of those, "Alright. Enough with the doctrines of men blather, already!" moments. It's just that sometimes you see a post that has the same effect as a Jehovah's Witness ringing your doorbell, or Satan coming in person, to offer you a bowl of fruit.

I have a hard time reconciling we have the New Testament for almost a couple thousand years, yet some people are still contradicting very clear scripture truth with all this debunked garbage from, also, generations ago, as if they can't read or have very brief attention spans. I've always found that so weird, to this day. It's as if spiritual blindness is some potent stupid pill, that kills reading comprehension. It really does, again 1 Corinthians 2:14, but I've always found this so strange, how a mind that knows anything of scripture can possibly say, "God created most people evil robots He purposes to damn, without recourse, before He created any robots," when scripture is clear God would have all men saved, but that it's up to us to choose God, repent and believe, etc. And how silly is it that this puts Holy God in the business of providing the devil a huge kingdom of the wicked, as it were, God the very author of irresistible evil? The Calvinist will blabber on and on, ad nauseam, about "irresistible grace" (which man cognitively resists very well, in the main), but say nothing of the other side of the coin, the irresistible evil that must also be, and evil, therefore, preordained of God! It's like all they're doing is presenting a two-headed, counterfeit coin. And, when you think about it, if many are called and few are chosen, irresistible evil wins for the many, God's very plan an evil, unavoidable disaster for most: this of a loving God? As a matter of fact, neither can the idiot Calvinist explain the origin of evil, why it doesn't come from very God, Who is Holy, Holy, Holy, in my Bible, how evil can exist outside God, if God's plan cannot be resisted? This thinking is as evil as it gets, as perverted as all hell! In any event, it really is like they can't read what's on the page, and Dick and Jane simple scripture statements the opposite of their lying claims, at that.

One could go on forever how stupid it all gets, God ordaining all things, allowing no resistance, everything predetermined. Alright then, Satan is a creature, also. To have any congruity, no other creature can either resist the Calvinist absolutely sovereign God, hence Satan was created to be Satan? If God made the personally unsovereign damned, by design, He also had to be the designer of temptation to irresistible evil, to facilitate damnation, yet James 1:13. And then what would the Calvinist have God doing, all these thousands of years? Throwing complaints at His evil robots, that are just responding to their programming? Is that simply nuts or what? Oh! And any statements of free will, anywhere in scripture, or any claim of common sense man that he did, indeed, have choices presented, and did, indeed, choose his course in life, did, indeed, make decisions resulting in good or evil, that's just an illusion, you see: don't believe your lying freewill that you use everyday. (I think one Calvinist once told me you are allowed to choose between Cornflakes and Cocoa Puffs for breakfast, yet unable to explain why the Cornflakes choice was not also preordained, or God is not capital ‘S’ Sovereign. Just another inexplicable tiptoe through the TULIPs…)

You know, you'd turn blue and die, if you held your breath until announcing I've become a Roman Catholic. But I'd become a Catholic, hands down, before I'd hang with a bunch of Calvinist perverts. There's pernicious, then there's really pernicious.

Somebody made a good comment here whether anybody became a Calvinist by studying the Bible. Definitely not Calvin. I strongly suspect schizophrenia or something. Too bad he didn’t live in modern times, though. He’d have done some bang-up DC Comics, dualistic, multiple personality disorder gods, at war with themselves, characters like the Batman Joker. Next time you hear anybody say, “You couldn’t make this stuff up!”, respond, “Calvin could.”

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Job 11:12 An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.

This is just so well stated!

I too have long wondered how it is possible for people to cling to the Calvinist blasphemy once they've been exposed to the perfectly clear sound reason that just destroys it utterly. I mean, I can see how someone raised in the doctrine could believe it. People can be made to believe almost anything if they're raised in the system from the time they can understand language. But many don't even have that excuse! Indeed, there are really tallented and obviously intelligent people that are hard core true believers in things as utterly insane as Scientology, which didn't even exist at all before December 1953! There seems to be no limit to the creative ways humans can find to created and cling to all sorts of evil. So long as it is false, it seems there will be whole crowds of people who believe it. It's the truth that seems to repel people like light does the cockroach.

One key reason, I think, is that many reject sound reason and think it pius to simply believe something in spite of what clear, rational thinking would permit. As such, they cannot be convinced away from their error. They close the noose around their own neck by following their heart instead of their heads and believing that faith is the opposite of reason instead of the right response to it.


Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?


Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,...


Acts 26:25 But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason.

 

[Nang]

Let's see if you hold to that:

Does he control how many milliseconds will be in a child porn video?

Sovereign God is the first cause of all things. Sovereign God willed to create man in His image, thereby giving all mankind moral responsibility and accountability to exercise "secondary causes." This ability is subject to and governed by Sovereign God's Law and natural Order.

The first Adam was given a conscious intelligence that could willfully follow God's commands, and make natural orderly choices regarding the environment into which he was placed. Adam failed to exercise his secondary, causal abilities in obedience to God; nor to husband the garden and animals as ordered. This failure, called "sin" is the (secondary) cause of all subsequent corruption and death on this planet.

Child porn is sin caused by man. The wages of sin is death.

Death is Righteous Justice, wielded by Sovereign God against the unlawful and corrupt causal actions committed by mankind.

I see you using the word "eternal." By "eternal" do you mean "timeless"? Because eternal does not mean timeless. It means unending duration.

"Time" is part of creation. There is no time in the eternal state. "Timelessness" is the definition of eternity that has no beginning nor end.

So I ask again, rephrasing my question:

Was God sovereign before He created?

Does God possess a beginning or an end?

So let's use your definition this time. I'll ask a question, then I have a follow-up question.

Did God ordain all things?

Yes.

Did God ordain each pedophile to be a pedophile

ALL sinfulness originated with Adam. God ordained the first Adam, and all his descendents would fail to willfully or successfully live according to Divine Law & Order, but God also ordained the last Adam, Jesus Christ,I would remedy that tragedy. I Corinthians 15:45-57

If your answer IS yes, then the god you worship is not the God of the Bible, because such things DO NOT COME from the mind, heart, and soul of God Almighty, and to say they do is BLASPHEMY.

I agree. No sin comes from the mind, heart or soul of Almighty God. God is not the author of sin.

All sin, corruptions, and death comes from the WILL (heart), WILL (mind), and soul of mankind.

Man freely wills to do all the sinning.

God does all the saving.

According to His Sovereign Will and Wisdom . . .

(Never according to the tainted will of sinful men. Only unrepentant rebels cling to the notion of having free will to conduct their lives as they please, or work salvation of their souls, according to their corrupted causal abilities.) Romans 3:10-20

My answers to you are Orthodox Christian beliefs, held and taught by faithful believers since the time of Christ. None of this new or just my opinion, but reiteration of historical, biblical, Protestant theology, passed down through the ages.

 

[Theo102]

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

This is a mistranslation caused by bad vowel pointing.


The heart [is] deceitful[עקב] above all [things], and desperately wicked[אנש]: who can know it?

עקב = reward
אנש = people/sociable

Moreover by them is thy servant warned: [and] in keeping of them [there is] great reward[עקב].
Psalms 19:11

This [is] the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, [even] unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men[אנש] on this side the river, and at such a time.
Ezra 4:11

Another example of bad vowel pointing:

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/wild_ass_2003.htm

 

[Nang]

Instead of making some doctrinal proclamation, why not just quote Revelation 1:17-18?


Could it be cause the verse directly and undeniably contradicts Calvinist doctrine as well as directly affirming the post you're now trying to refute?

I guess the new format does not include scriptural links from references.

However, it is always good to pick up a bible and read the references; especially to check out the full context of verses given.

What's sad is that you show up on a Christian debate forum with no ability whatsoever to refute a single point I've made but instead think that someone might be persuaded by you showing up to spout intentional lies.

You deny most of the attributes of God plus the very essence of His Christ, so what is to refute? What communication can I establish with your darkness?

I can only post biblical orthodox Truth as it has been held and taught by Christians and the Protestant church down through the ages. If you do not believe sound theology, I cannot argue you into doing so. Faith to believe and comprehend comes only by Revelation.

"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written: 'The just shall live by faith.'" Romans 1:17

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sovereign God is the first cause of all things.

Well, no, not "all things."

Yes, God created the heavens, the earth, the seas and all that is within them, but He did NOT cause man to sin, even though He is the "cause" of man's will.

Sovereign God willed to create man in His image, thereby giving all mankind moral responsibility and accountability to exercise "secondary causes." This ability is subject to and governed by Sovereign God's Law and natural Order.

God cannot violate anyone's will.

He could, if He wanted to (He doesn't), take control of someone's body, but it wouldn't be controlling their will.

The first Adam was given a conscious intelligence that could willfully follow God's commands, and make natural orderly choices regarding the environment into which he was placed.

He did so with Lucifer and Eve as well.

Or did you forget that Lucifer is the original cause of man's sin... Oh wait....

Adam failed to exercise his secondary, causal abilities in obedience to God; nor to husband the garden and animals as ordered. This failure, called "sin" is the (secondary) cause of all subsequent corruption and death on this planet.

Well, no, that would be entropy taking it's toll on creation, as God removed access to the Tree of Life which would restore the biological systems which God had created.

Child porn is sin caused by man.

Not according to you, it isn't. Or rather, at the very least, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

You said the following:

Sovereign God is the first cause of all things.

According to your belief of what "all things" means, God is the first cause of the sin caused by man that we call child pornography. That makes this...

ALL sinfulness originated with Adam. God ordained the first Adam, and all his descendents would fail to willfully or successfully live according to Divine Law & Order

... And this...

I agree. No sin comes from the mind, heart or soul of Almighty God. God is not the author of sin.

All sin, corruptions, and death comes from the WILL (heart), WILL (mind), and soul of mankind.

... false, due to the law of noncontradiction.

So which is it? Is God the cause of sin, or is Adam, or more accurately, is Lucifer?

The wages of sin is death.

Death is Righteous Justice, wielded by Sovereign God against the unlawful and corrupt causal actions committed by mankind.

Which, according to you, God Himself ordained.

So who is ultimately responsible for man's wickedness? Again, according to you....

[Using Nang's definition of "all things"] Did God ordain all things?

Yes.

"All things" includes every detail of every sin ever committed, every action that every man took, at all points throughout history, every vile act, every detail of every murder, rape, molestation, adultery, theft, blasphemy, and on and on and on and on!

So Nang, You're faced with two options here, because as I said, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, where only one side can be true.

EITHER:

God ordained "all things" (as Nang means it).

OR:

God did NOT ordain "all things" (as Nang means it), but rather ordained SOME things, and allows men to experience the natural consequences of their actions.

Which do you choose?

ALL sinfulness originated with Adam.

Well, no, "all things" includes "all sinfulness." According to what you said here...

Sovereign God is the first cause of all things.

... God is the cause, the originator, the ordain-er, of "all things."

Your options are to blaspheme God by continuing to affirm that God ordained, caused, originated "all things" (which includes "all sinfulness"), which is what Calvinism teaches, OR to reject Calvinism for it's blasphemy against the Creator God, as you agree that God is not the author, originator, ordain-er, nor cause of sin.

The first option results in you contradicting yourself, the other option is the open theist position, that God did NOT ordain, cause, author, nor cause sin, only that God created man with a will, the ability to choose, because if one does not have the ability to hate, then one does not have the ability to love, because love must be freely given.

God ordained the first Adam, and all his descendents would fail to willfully or successfully live according to Divine Law & Order,

In other words, God ordained Adam to sin.

Which makes Him the source of sin.

Your position is inherently contradictory. You should give it up.

I agree. No sin comes from the mind, heart or soul of Almighty God. God is not the author of sin.

All sin, corruptions, and death comes from the WILL (heart), WILL (mind), and soul of mankind.

This contradicts your position that God ordained "all things," which includes "all sin, corruptions, and death."

Man freely wills to do all the sinning.

So you're a closet open theist?

Because that's OUR position!

God does all the saving.

Saving from something He Himself ordained?

According to His Sovereign Will and Wisdom . . .

Ah, there's that "sovereign" word again.

God BECAME sovereign the moment He created.

(Never according to the tainted will of sinful men.

Which isn't a will anyways, because God ordained "all things," which includes their actions, behavior, who they are, what they do, and how they live their life, with no real ability to do anything other than what God ordained.

Only unrepentant rebels

And there's the posturing condescension you Calvinists like to flaunt, trying to hide the fact that your position is literally falling apart at the seams faster than you're desperation of trying to cover up the gaps can manage.

cling to the notion of having free will

All wills are free by definition. "Free will" is a redundant term.

to conduct their lives as they please,

I direct you to Exodus where God planned for Moses to speak before Pharaoh, even if He had to teach him what to say, even to give him the words, and yet Moses, who had a (free) will, outright refused, and even made God angry with him for refusing to do what God wanted, and so then God changed the plan and decided to send both Moses AND Aaron, but Aaron would be the mouth of God.

That passage alone utterly destroys Calvinism/Augustinianism, because it shows the inanity of believing that God ordains "all things," that God is impassable and immutable, and that man does not have a will.

or work salvation of their souls,

Straw man. One is saved by faith through grace, and not of ourself, it is the GIFT of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

One is saved by confessing the Lord Jesus Christ with their mouth and believing God raised Him from the dead.

That's it. NO WORKS at all.

according to their corrupted causal abilities.) Romans 3:10-20

Another passage that completely destroys your postion.

Including verse 9, Paul in that passage is stating, almost outright, that ALL have willingly turned from God. That's not "God has ordained all things," That's "God gave man a will and allows them to choose between loving Him or hating Him."

My answers to you are Orthodox Christian beliefs,

No, they're orthodox CALVINIST beliefs, they're what Augustine taught, based on what PLATO taught.

They don't come from the Bible.

held and taught by faithful believers since the time of Christ.

You mean since the time of Augustine, who got his ideas from Plato. Calvin simply put them all together in his books.

None of this new or just my opinion, but reiteration of historical, biblical, Protestant theology, passed down through the ages.

Historical, Protestant theology, yes.

Biblical? No.

The ideas you put forth come from Plato originally, whom Augustine admired, whom Calvin modernized.

They do not come from the Bible.

 

[Clete]

This is a mistranslation caused by bad vowel pointing.


The heart [is] deceitful[עקב] above all [things], and desperately wicked[אנש]: who can know it?

עקב = reward
אנש = people/sociable

Moreover by them is thy servant warned: [and] in keeping of them [there is] great reward[עקב].
Psalms 19:11

This [is] the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, [even] unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men[אנש] on this side the river, and at such a time.
Ezra 4:11

Another example of bad vowel pointing:

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/wild_***_2003.htm

Nonsense.

The verse is four words in the original Hebrew

leb `aqob 'anash yada`

`aqob: in the denominative sense (transitive) fraudulent or (intransitive) tracked:—crooked, deceitful, polluted.

Translated in the KJV as crooked (1x), deceitful (1x), polluted (1x).


'anash: a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:—desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

Translated in the KJV as incurable (5x), desperate (1x), desperately wicked (1x), woeful (1x), sick.

You gonna try to tell me that the KJV got the translation wrong eleven times in various places and contexts?
I don't think so! Never once are these words translated in any way similar to "reward" and "people".

How would that make any sense anyway...

"The heart is an exceeding reward and is sociable who can understand it?"

That makes no sense whatseover!



By the way, the link at the end of your post does not work.

Clete

 

[Clete]

I guess the new format does not include scriptural links from references.

However, it is always good to pick up a bible and read the references; especially to check out the full context of verses given.

Which I have done twice now, showing that you've not done it at all.

You deny most of the attributes of God

I deny the attributes of Plato's god, not the God of scripture Who is a living God who loves us rather than the immutable, impassible stone idol that you worship.

You deny....plus the very essence of His Christ, so what is to refute?

I deny no such thing. Christ is the Creator God in the flesh. There is no caveat, comma or other qualifier. God took on a 2nd nature, a human nature which He had not had prior to the incarnation and not only now has but will continue to have forever more.

What communication can I establish with your darkness?

It's called scripture and plain reason. You're familiar with the former but reject the later and are thus stuck with no ability to open your mouth to refute a syllable of what I've said.

I can only post biblical orthodox Truth as it has been held and taught by Christians and the Protestant church down through the ages.

This is the second time you've cited tradition as your authority. Are we converting to Catholicism any time soon? The rejection of tradition is one of the cornerstone principles of the entire reformation! You do still call yourself "Reformed", do you not?

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." - Martin Luther

You, as with the Catholics of Luther's day, can't be moved an inch by either scripture or sound reason because you're loyalty isn't to the principled reading of God's word but to the doctrines and traditions of men like Calvin the Westminster Confession, et al. For you every plain statement of God's living, prersonal, relatiional, loving, righteous nature and character is a figure of speech!

If you do not believe sound theology, I cannot argue you into doing so.

I agree that YOU cannot do this. It is above you by a long shot but that isn't what you meant. You meant to suggest that one must believe your doctrine in order for your arguments to work on them.

Are you really that stupid?

Yes. I think the answer is indeed a resounding yes, you are that stupid.

If I already accepted your doctrine, where would be the need for your arguments and with this sort of attitude, what could possibly motivate you to ever show up on this debate forum to begin with?

Oh, wait! I remember! :chuckle:

Faith to believe and comprehend comes only by Revelation.

"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written: 'The just shall live by faith.'" Romans 1:17

You're a deceiver and full of lies!

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God! It isn't mystical, it isn't a supernatural miracle. It's the bible read by or preached to people who have an open heart and a desire to learn and understand the things of God who is rich to all who call upon Him!

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Clete

 

[Clete]

Let's watch a Calvinist squirm...

I agree. No sin comes from the mind, heart or soul of Almighty God. God is not the author of sin.

All sin, corruptions, and death comes from the WILL (heart), WILL (mind), and soul of mankind.

Man freely wills to do all the sinning..

Reconcile that statement with the following...

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...
...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)


Go ahead, Nang! Explain it to us! You are on record as having affirmed every single one of those quotations of Calvin as being consistent not only with the teachings of Calvinism but with your own beliefs and yet you show up here and say the absolute opposite! You state that God is the first cause of all things and then in the very same post state that evil is not the will of God but the will of men while Calvin said that it absolutely was (is) the will of God as are all things that happen.

Calvinism is a mental disorder!

 

[Lon]

Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him.

:nono: It isn't at all that "God would rather..." It is leading and the wrong direction. Such is not, for most of us, Calvinism. Because I'm not 'that kind' of Calvinist, I cannot answer because it doesn't apply. The simple answer, from my Calvinism perspective is: "He did not." Its difficult to answer questions when one doesn't grasp the whole of Calvinism propositions. I've seen a good many on TOL that have even said they 'were' Calvinists but when they talk, I'm convinced they either had a skewed version that AMR often said was a Calvinism cult or heresy, or they simply never grasped. In any theological model, could it have worked 'otherwise?' It isn't just Calvinism concerned. Calvinism need not be scapegoated for the question. It can be asked, from anybody. Calvinism has no corner on the market nor is the only doorstep such a gauntlet can be dropped. It becomes my humble opinion, then, that all of these questions can be asked of all of Christianity and should be asked in general, toward all believers. If it is only asked of Calvinism, then the questioner is not really addressing the problems, just trying to get rid of them from their own minds by proxy of a scapegoat: It simply isn't seeing nor answering the questions that come to mind, just passing them off or better seeing them in someone else's backyard. That's fine, but how do we all answer these questions? Not just Calvinists.

Imho, here is a better way to ask this: All theology perspectives: Why did God create man with the 'ability' to sin with such pain and cost and loss involved?

I hold that this is a more meaningful question because it brings us all to the same table and asks us all tough questions. Whichever theological answer we see as mostly lining up with scriptural answers, is generally where we affiliate. For me, it makes incredibly more sense that God knows and is, even as Open Theists claim: Omnicompetent. Everything unfolds as He has meticulously planned 'because' He is unwilling that ANY is lost. One who cares if one sparrow falls, cares if even one person whom He can save, is lost.

He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels.

He did. Genesis 1:31
And, just like the angels, our race fell as well.

If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power.

There are several reasons I like Open Theists such as you, one is that you ask good questions and think hard about them. IN this, I'd simply say as above "not my understanding of Calvinism." Another reason I like Open Theists is because you guys understand mischaracterizations and can empathize, at least I empathize anyway. We both get misunderstood and others often get it wrong. However best we can explain, and if someone listens to the answer: the better. He has the ability. Revelation 13:8 With you, I agree He has Omnipotence. Some Open Theists disagree with both of us. He could have. The difference between us isn't that He didn't, but rather 'why this way?' And "It seems a hard way to do this."

If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go.

Whether we are Calvinists or not, we all have this question. Why did he choose that upon the premise "He didn't have to..." Given the severity of context, the Lord Jesus Christ did ask for this cup to pass. For all of us, especially with the answer "this cup will not pass" from the Father, we can assure Open Theists, Arminians, Catholics, and Calvinists that this was the effectual plan. We know that the demonstrative love of the Father through the sacrifice of the Son, affected an incredible outcome. 1 John 4:19 Romans 5:8 Wisdom is whatever He decides and applies, even if it doesn't seem as 'wise' in our eyes. The end of Romans 11 specifically addresses this question: Romans11²⁹ for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. ³⁰ Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, ³¹ so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now^[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. ³² For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
And then: Romans 11³³ Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and^[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
³⁴ “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”^[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”^[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?

Could He have? In any theological model, could it have worked 'otherwise?' It isn't just Calvinism concerned. Calvinism need not be scapegoated for the question. It can be asked, from anybody. Calvinism has no corner on the market nor is the only doorstep such a gauntlet can be dropped. It becomes my humble opinion, then, that all of these questions can be asked of all of Christianity and should be asked in general, toward all believers. If it is only asked of Calvinism, then the questioner is not really addressing the problems, just trying to get rid of them from their own minds by proxy of a scapegoat: It simply isn't seeing nor answering the questions that come to mind, just passing them off or better seeing them in someone else's backyard. That's fine, but how do we all answer these questions? Not just Calvinists. Great questions, Poly. In Him -Lonnie

Another consideration. If God can predestine evil to occur and it's considered righteous because He's the one who decreed it for His good pleasure, why could He not just consider our evil righteous as well? That way, Christ would not have to die for our unrighteousness.

This one is answered in Romans 9 also. Romans 9:22-26

 

[Lon]

I thank you for this award, but must thank my very special parents, first, that made it possible for the world to be blessed with me. I love you Mommy and Daddy, wherever you've been all these years! I would also like to thank the Academy, thank all those at the Beverly Hills Straight Off the Couch Clinic, who've been with me through all eleven rehabs and nervous breakdowns. I would like to thank Jesus, my gardener, my new best friend during filming and love of my life these months, without whom I'd also not have known how to deal with all the serious property damage. I would also like to thank all my fans, that think of me all the time and love only me, but remember: you have to love yourself, first. Most of all, I'd like to thank my little dog, Fifi.

Though it's hardly possible anymore, in this thread, to be serious: thank you, Clete. It seems you like it when I have one of those, "Alright. Enough with the doctrines of men blather, already!" moments. It's just that sometimes you see a post that has the same effect as a Jehovah's Witness ringing your doorbell, or Satan coming in person, to offer you a bowl of fruit.

I have a hard time reconciling we have the New Testament for almost a couple thousand years, yet some people are still contradicting very clear scripture truth with all this debunked garbage from, also, generations ago, as if they can't read or have very brief attention spans. I've always found that so weird, to this day. It's as if spiritual blindness is some potent stupid pill, that kills reading comprehension. It really does, again 1 Corinthians 2:14, but I've always found this so strange, how a mind that knows anything of scripture can possibly say, "God created most people evil robots He purposes to damn, without recourse, before He created any robots," when scripture is clear God would have all men saved, but that it's up to us to choose God, repent and believe, etc. And how silly is it that this puts Holy God in the business of providing the devil a huge kingdom of the wicked, as it were, God the very author of irresistible evil? The Calvinist will blabber on and on, ad nauseam, about "irresistible grace" (which man cognitively resists very well, in the main), but say nothing of the other side of the coin, the irresistible evil that must also be, and evil, therefore, preordained of God! It's like all they're doing is presenting a two-headed, counterfeit coin. And, when you think about it, if many are called and few are chosen, irresistible evil wins for the many, God's very plan an evil, unavoidable disaster for most: this of a loving God? As a matter of fact, neither can the idiot Calvinist explain the origin of evil, why it doesn't come from very God, Who is Holy, Holy, Holy, in my Bible, how evil can exist outside God, if God's plan cannot be resisted? This thinking is as evil as it gets, as perverted as all hell! In any event, it really is like they can't read what's on the page, and Dick and Jane simple scripture statements the opposite of their lying claims, at that.

One could go on forever how stupid it all gets, God ordaining all things, allowing no resistance, everything predetermined. Alright then, Satan is a creature, also. To have any congruity, no other creature can either resist the Calvinist absolutely sovereign God, hence Satan was created to be Satan? If God made the personally unsovereign damned, by design, He also had to be the designer of temptation to irresistible evil, to facilitate damnation, yet James 1:13. And then what would the Calvinist have God doing, all these thousands of years? Throwing complaints at His evil robots, that are just responding to their programming? Is that simply nuts or what? Oh! And any statements of free will, anywhere in scripture, or any claim of common sense man that he did, indeed, have choices presented, and did, indeed, choose his course in life, did, indeed, make decisions resulting in good or evil, that's just an illusion, you see: don't believe your lying freewill that you use everyday. (I think one Calvinist once told me you are allowed to choose between Cornflakes and Cocoa Puffs for breakfast, yet unable to explain why the Cornflakes choice was not also preordained, or God is not capital ‘S’ Sovereign. Just another inexplicable tiptoe through the TULIPs…)

You know, you'd turn blue and die, if you held your breath until announcing I've become a Roman Catholic. But I'd become a Catholic, hands down, before I'd hang with a bunch of Calvinist perverts. There's pernicious, then there's really pernicious.

Somebody made a good comment here whether anybody became a Calvinist by studying the Bible. Definitely not Calvin. I strongly suspect schizophrenia or something. Too bad he didn’t live in modern times, though. He’d have done some bang-up DC Comics, dualistic, multiple personality disorder gods, at war with themselves, characters like the Batman Joker. Next time you hear anybody say, “You couldn’t make this stuff up!”, respond, “Calvin could.”

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Job 11:12 An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.

1) Yes, in fact I did become Calvinistic from Scriptures. Am I a Calvinist today? To me, it doesn't matter. "Calvinism" most accurately describes 'my' particular scripture understanding after years of study and degrees.

Not sure why its questioned in thread. It amounts to not much.

2) I find such vitriol beneath most on both intellectual and spiritual basis. It is most often confirmation bias and incredibly thin and meaningless. It never bothers me when someone bashes "Calvinism" because I'd have to esteem their intellectual and spiritual prowess first, and second because even supposed former Calvinists never understood it as I do. This isn't to say I don't disagree on a number of points with Calvinism. Let's take that for a moment: I certainly don't believe Calvin was an 'idiot' as you put it, or 'stupid.' Sorry, it just isn't an 'intelligent' comment. It is just an 'angst' comment and such just doesn't bother me, other than not being good for 'your' soul. These are scripture discussions, not banal banter offerings. Proverbs warns me to refrain from such meanderings into things that just don't matter at that point. Besides, I cannot do theology on who bullies the meanest on the playground. YOUR theology and spiritual walk are showing by such an offering.

3) Contrasts: Look for a Godly man or woman on TOL or any place else and stick with them. 2 Timothy 2:23 Titus 3:9


We simply must do better. Simply saying "Catholics are corrupt" is not a rally cry. It is simply being disgruntled. Instead offer up better, or listen to your parents about saying something nice or nothing at all. It casts a bad light on both Christianity and your respective theology if "I hate those guys, they are stupid" is the first or only thing out of your mouth. My post may be of no consequence, but I truly pray it produces a better conversation, that it allows for some needed correction on poor assumptions, and that it aligns with Proverbs 6:12-15; 10:11-14,18,32;11:7,11,30;12:14-16,23,18 The words of the reckless pierce like swords, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Proverbs 13:3

In Him

 

[Nang]

Let's watch a Calvinist squirm...

Your posts do not make me squirm at all Clete.

I do not post in reaction or in response to your opposition to “Calvinism” but simply to witness to Godly Truth as revealed in Holy Scripture.

Other readers who are given spiritual eyes to see,
and ears to hear, will recognize the Gospel I confess, according to the saving grace of God alone.

So be it . . .

 

[Theo102]

Nonsense.

It's not, you obviously missed the point.

The verse is four words in the original Hebrew

leb `aqob 'anash yada`

`aqob: in the denominative sense (transitive) fraudulent or (intransitive) tracked:—crooked, deceitful, polluted.

Translated in the KJV as crooked (1x), deceitful (1x), polluted (1x).

You couldn't even cope with the idea that you've got to ignore the vowel pointing.

`aqob:

עֵקֶב ʻêqeb, ay'-keb; from H6117 in the sense of H6119; a heel, i.e. (figuratively) the last of anything (used adverbially, for ever); also result, i.e. compensation; and so (adverb with preposition or relatively) on account of:—× because, by, end, for, if, reward.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6118&t=KJV

'anash: a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:—desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

Translated in the KJV as incurable (5x), desperate (1x), desperately wicked (1x), woeful (1x), sick.

'anash

אֱנָשׁ ʼĕnâsh, en-awsh'; (Aramaic) or אֱנַשׁ ʼĕnash; (Aramaic), corresponding to H582; a man:—man, whosoever.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H606&t=KJV

You gonna try to tell me that the KJV got the translation wrong eleven times in various places and contexts?

Why would I do that? I never said that all usages of the words had the wrong vowel pointing.

How would that make any sense anyway...

"The heart is an exceeding reward and is sociable who can understand it?"

That makes no sense whatseover!

Only because you inserted your own language and ignored the sense of the Hebrew.

"The heart rewards for all mankind, who can know it?"

 

[Clete]

It's not, you obviously missed the point.



You couldn't even cope with the idea that you've got to ignore the vowel pointing.

`aqob:

עֵקֶב ʻêqeb, ay'-keb; from H6117 in the sense of H6119; a heel, i.e. (figuratively) the last of anything (used adverbially, for ever); also result, i.e. compensation; and so (adverb with preposition or relatively) on account of:—× because, by, end, for, if, reward.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H6118&t=KJV



'anash

אֱנָשׁ ʼĕnâsh, en-awsh'; (Aramaic) or אֱנַשׁ ʼĕnash; (Aramaic), corresponding to H582; a man:—man, whosoever.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...ngs=H606&t=KJV



Why would I do that? I never said that all usages of the words had the wrong vowel pointing.



Only because you inserted your own language and ignored the sense of the Hebrew.

"The heart rewards for all mankind, who can know it?"

I didn't ignore anything. I don't know Hebrew but I can read a concordance and have over 400 years of English translations of the bible as evidence that you're wrong.

I can't find a single translation of the bible where the dozens of experts in biblical Hebrew ever once agreed with your contention. Not a single one!

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? - KJV

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it? - NKJV

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it? - ESV

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it? - ASV

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? - BRG

“The heart is more deceitful than anything else
and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? - CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)

“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick; - NASV

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? - NIV

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it? - RSV

Whether it's a major, well recieve and widely used translation or an obscure translation that no one has ever heard of before except on BibleGateway.com, they all universally translate it pretty much exactly the same way.

Could they all be wrong? Sure, they could be. But if you think I'm going to take your word for it, you'd better think again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



So let's take a look at your translation...

"The heart rewards for all mankind, who can know it?"

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?

It certainly makes no sense standing on its own nor does it fit the context of the passage (i.e. the context gives no hint to what a weird sentence might mean). It's jibberish.

What exactly is the point of thinking that this even might be a good translation anyway? I mean, besides stripping the passage of all coherent meaning and application, what could possibly be the point of rejecting a translation that has stood the test of time in favor of what amounts to jibberish? I just flat out do not get it.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Your posts do not make me squirm at all Clete.

I do not post in reaction or in response to your opposition to “Calvinism” but simply to witness to Godly Truth as revealed in Holy Scripture.

Other readers who are given spiritual eyes to see,
and ears to hear, will recognize the Gospel I confess, according to the saving grace of God alone.

So be it . . .

You're lies are so transparent! :chuckle:

If you could refute a word I've said, a herd of angry elephants couldn't pull you away from your computer keyboard fast enough to prevent your doing so.

But it's completely fine with me! Far be it from me to complain when a fool tells me straight up that they have no intention of ever refuting my arguments. I'll just keep crushing you and your blasphemous doctrine to powder with impunity. :up:

 

[Clete]

1) Yes, in fact I did become Calvinistic from Scriptures. Am I a Calvinist today? To me, it doesn't matter. "Calvinism" most accurately describes 'my' particular scripture understanding after years of study and degrees.

Not sure why its questioned in thread. It amounts to not much.

Every single Calvinist that I've ever seen make this claim has never been willing to prove it.

The fact is that even Augustine, the veritable fount from which all things Calvinist sprang, understood that the doctrine of immutability (and other similar doctrines) could not survice even a single reading of the first few chapter of Genesis, nevermind the entire bible. Even Augustine understood that such doctrines must be brought to the reading of scripture and indeed, he refused to become a Christian until someone (Bishop Ambrose) showed him how to do exactly that.

In short, this claim is pretty easy to make but seems impossible to back up with any evidence. In short, I do not believe you.

2) I find such vitriol beneath most on both intellectual and spiritual basis. It is most often confirmation bias and incredibly thin and meaningless. It never bothers me when someone bashes "Calvinism" because I'd have to esteem their intellectual and spiritual prowess first, and second because even supposed former Calvinists never understood it as I do. This isn't to say I don't disagree on a number of points with Calvinism. Let's take that for a moment: I certainly don't believe Calvin was an 'idiot' as you put it, or 'stupid.' Sorry, it just isn't an 'intelligent' comment. It is just an 'angst' comment and such just doesn't bother me, other than not being good for 'your' soul. These are scripture discussions, not banal banter offerings. Proverbs warns me to refrain from such meanderings into things that just don't matter at that point. Besides, I cannot do theology on who bullies the meanest on the playground. YOUR theology and spiritual walk are showing by such an offering.

3) Contrasts: Look for a Godly man or woman on TOL or any place else and stick with them. 2 Timothy 2:23 Titus 3:9


We simply must do better. Simply saying "Catholics are corrupt" is not a rally cry. It is simply being disgruntled. Instead offer up better, or listen to your parents about saying something nice or nothing at all. It casts a bad light on both Christianity and your respective theology if "I hate those guys, they are stupid" is the first or only thing out of your mouth. My post may be of no consequence, but I truly pray it produces a better conversation, that it allows for some needed correction on poor assumptions, and that it aligns with Proverbs 6:12-15; 10:11-14,18,32;11:7,11,30;12:14-16,23,18 The words of the reckless pierce like swords, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Proverbs 13:3

In Him

Well let's put that to the test, shall we? Let's just see if you can come down off your high horse of intellectual integrity, mental prowess and godly self control and let's discuss just which points of Cavlinism you disagree with and let's see who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. The problem for you in such a challenge is that you're right about Calvin not being stuipid. He most certainly was not stupid (at least he wasn't in the sense of his raw intelligence or "IQ"). He was extremely evil and was a tyrant but he wasn't an idiot. And since Calvinism is little more than reformed Augustinian doctrine, we should acknowledge that Augustine wasn't stupid either. The doctrinal system is quite logically coherent and interlocked. It isn't their logic that is flawed (in most cases - not all) but their premises. It turns out that the vast majority of Calvinist doctrine is logically necessary if God is actually immutable. Pretty much the entire theological contruct is built upon that singular premise. You seem to think that you can pick and choose which of their doctrines you can accept and which you can reject while maintaining "intellectual and spiritual prowess" but I'm betting that you'll be just like every other Calvinist I've ever met who believe what they've been taught to believe and over the years have decided to cling to this doctrine over here and to reject that doctrine over there for their own personal disconnected and mostly ineffable reasons.

Prediction: You will refuse to do so. You wouldn't touch such a challenge with a ten foot pole. Prove me wrong.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Not sure why its questioned in thread. It amounts to not much.

I certainly don't believe Calvin was an 'idiot' as you put it, or 'stupid.'

Well, tell you what, legendary scholar of scholars, in your own mind. I presented very clear scripture a child can understand that shreds TULIP Calvinism, but scripture you apparently have a lot of difficulty with.

As to idiots, I believe all evil are idiots. I believe all evil are fools. I believe anybody is an idiot and a fool that is a liar. I believe it's clear only losers of losers are liars, because all liars go to hell. I don't see that God asks why anybody's a liar, either.

Now, if you disagree, have this friend of the world concept that evil men of contorted, perverse and irrational thinking, that would contradict the mind of God, are intelligent, well then, sure, let's call Calvin an evil genius, then. The only thing is, nobody is an evil genius in my book, or God's book.

Again, if one is to wish for a drop of water on their tongue in hell, they could invent a time machine and still be an idiot and a fool in God's economy, and that's the only economy that matters, to me, anyway. So, yes, Calvin was an idiot and a fool. Okay?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You could say there aren't going to be any damned liars in hell that would contradict and slander Almighty God one could possibly characterize as smart. Just fools. If you beg the differ, then you could say the main difference between you and I is that I am not you, as hard as that is for you to comprehend. But capisce?

By the way, you're either led into all truth, or you're not:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[ttruscott]

Does he control how many milliseconds will be in a child porn video?

....

If your answer IS yes, then the god you worship is not the God of the Bible, because such things DO NOT COME from the mind, heart, and soul of God Almighty, and to say they do is BLASPHEMY.

Why not? And no, I can believe HE controls our sin without being the author of that sin. It is we ourselves in our enslavement to evil that produces the evil desire that drives us to sin, not GOD: GOD tempts no one!

Since HE allows evil, do you think HE cannot allow when it starts and when HE wants it to end? My goodness...

 

[ttruscott]

Did God ordain all things?

In my Christian opinion:
of course not! GOD did not ordain our evil! All evil is produced / created by the free will decision of the person. That is why inherited sin is such a blasphemy.

 

[ttruscott]

It's not, you obviously missed the point.



You couldn't even cope with the idea that you've got to ignore the vowel pointing.

`aqob:

עֵקֶב ʻêqeb, ay'-keb; from H6117 in the sense of H6119; a heel, i.e. (figuratively) the last of anything (used adverbially, for ever); also result, i.e. compensation; and so (adverb with preposition or relatively) on account of:—× because, by, end, for, if, reward.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6118&t=KJV
'anash

אֱנָשׁ ʼĕnâsh, en-awsh'; (Aramaic) or אֱנַשׁ ʼĕnash; (Aramaic), corresponding to H582; a man:—man, whosoever.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H606&t=KJV
Why would I do that? I never said that all usages of the words had the wrong vowel pointing.
Only because you inserted your own language and ignored the sense of the Hebrew.

"The heart rewards for all mankind, who can know it?"

You chose which vowel pointing to accept due to your prior commitment to your theology, not because it was proven to you by GOD. In other words your interpretation is by eisegesis because with NO VOWEL POINTING, the words support both, either, interpretation.

 

[Lon]

Well, tell you what, legendary scholar of scholars, in your own mind. I presented very clear scripture a child can understand that shreds TULIP Calvinism, but scripture you apparently have a lot of difficulty with.

Oh! This is the 'you' show where you are the judge jury AND executioner. How very humble of you? Where is the "Wonderful Lord Jesus" here? Not seeing it and I too am a lover of my Savior. Let's try lifting HIM up instead of our pet theologies? I have not found any systematic theology without flaws NOR have I nor seen anyone else's, proverbial nail in the coffin. I'm not an Open Theist because it has, for me, too many scriptural holes. I'm not an Arminian because I believe scriptures call us to deny self, not herald free-self-will as a gift from God. I'm not trying to argue either point, I'm saying I've a very good grasp of scriptures and as far as I understand them, neither of these fits my current understanding.

As to idiots, I believe all evil are idiots. I believe all evil are fools. I believe anybody is an idiot and a fool that is a liar. I believe it's clear only losers of losers are liars, because all liars go to hell. I don't see that God asks why anybody's a liar, either.

Too far, it eradicates a good many Christians and becomes cult thinking. The rule of Salvation is who has the Son. I don't believe ANY of my brothers and sisters in Christ 'can' be idiots or stupid. How could they be? They are IN Christ.

Now, if you disagree, have this friend of the world concept that evil men of contorted, perverse and irrational thinking, that would contradict the mind of God, are intelligent, well then, sure, let's call Calvin an evil genius, then. The only thing is, nobody is an evil genius in my book, or God's book.

This debate has carried over for centuries touching every denomination and is still present in every denomination from Baptists and even though ousted, still found among Catholics as well. What that means is, you nor anyone else has ever 'shredded' Calvinism. I didn't like Calvinism when I first found it. I wasn't a Calvinist. Some still say I'm not. I'm not really concerned but Calvinism, as Spurgeon says, is scriptural. He called it 'nothing more or less than the gospel.' What he meant was that the issues of our salvation are found in God alone. He believed our Salvation was completely in God's hands alone. The embrace of scriptures called "Calvinism" is a grasp of, and believing in all of Ephesians 2:8-10 along with all trimmings and implications. If I can explain: Ephesians 2:8-10
For by Grace (alone) you are saved, not by works, but by Faith (alone) so that no man can boast (in any thing or any one part), it is (purely, alone) God's gift. For we are recreated God's work (not our own) for works that He Himself prepared us to do.

Most objections to Calvinism touch on these three verses and I simply cannot erase Ephesians 2: 8-10 from my Bible. Nor, for instance Romans 9 nor Philippians 2:13

For me, ALL that matters isn't really a discussion about various Systematic theologies, lest they become our real gods, but about what scripture says AND ensure that you, I, and others, get them and understand them as well as where our respective hold on them may have room for expanding against our particular interpretations because the fear of the Lord alone, is the beginning of wisdom. That, is why I don't believe any found in Christ, are without it. It cannot happen that they are idiots/stupid. The Holy Spirit is their guide and teacher. Stupid/idiot cannot happen.

Again, if one is to wish for a drop of water on their tongue in hell, they could invent a time machine and still be an idiot and a fool in God's economy, and that's the only economy that matters, to me, anyway. So, yes, Calvin was an idiot and a fool. Okay?

I can't say the same of an Arminian, Open Theist, or Catholic. He who has the Son, has life. He who has-not the Son, does not. You are jumping ahead and judging Calvin as 'has not' but if he called upon the Savior, he was on journey with the Savior, right or wrong along the way. I've been wrong, even toward heresies in my walk. God has made straight those poor theologies and is still working on my and getting me to grasp Him. As studied as I am, I've never met the theologian who knows it all. I've never met one theologian that didn't see the flaws in his own systematic theology. In that pool, we who are Christ's, are His alone to call. We've been segmented enough as a body without a need to oust all Calvinists from our midsts. Perhaps you disagree, but we are accountable for our words and actions before our Maker. We have to give account for differences and I see none of this nature, in the accounts from Acts for instance. Paul calls generally for the immoral to be ousted. He does call for false teachers to be ousted too, but these two are preaching for selfish and immoral gain in almost every instance. I just don't find that in Calvinist/other discussions. To be sure, there are Calvinists who treat all contenders as unbelievers as well, but my caution goes out to both sides.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You could say there aren't going to be any damned liars in hell that would contradict and slander Almighty God one could possibly characterize as smart. Just fools. If you beg the differ, then you could say the main difference between you and I is that I am not you, as hard as that is for you to comprehend. But capisce?

Yeah, that's why I entered. It became the "you" show instead of the 'honor Christ' show. Capisce? Simple vitriol doesn't carry the thread. It becomes simple declarations and fallacious appeal to authority: your's. The fellow who gave you props thinks the same way and I have him on ignore because Christ is usually the last thing I see in Him (not a call on him, a call on why I particularly cannot do discussion at that point and thus have him on ignore). He may love the Lord, but it seldom shows (again, my perception, I see a lot of him, not a lot of Him, so I avoid). This dialogue may have us doing the same. If the conversation cannot be turned fruitful and Christ-honoring, then for me, it is simply wise to avoid them as fruitless banter (without the where-with-all to prove the point sufficiently, delusion), name-calling ("idiot" "stupid"), and posturing (where Christ is lost and two people or more become the focus as we;; as what they 'think' is worth defending or slamming). The fruit here would be that either of us is converted from the error of his/her ways. ▲The above offering wasn't it nor could it be ▲ Why? Because it doesn't engage the material, just show the disdain and aversion to it. "If" you were truly convinced, you'd have to show it instead of bashing it across. I know all the reasons why people do this: The Lord Jesus Christ nor Apostles were kind to false teachers and heretics, at least by example. However, again, the Pharisees and others who were bashed were bashed mostly because of their financial gain and livelihood. They were career 'professional' abusers. I've come to pray more and be kinder, more careful with cultists. These generally are the poor deluded flock and need careful, clear, and caring teaching.

By the way, you're either led into all truth, or you're not:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Perhaps not you, but for the rest of us: 2 Peter 3:15-16 - Philippians 3:12 followed by James 3:1 then 2 Timothy 2:15