Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

[Poly]

Another consideration. If God can predestine evil to occur and it's considered righteous because He's the one who decreed it for His good pleasure, why could He not just consider our evil righteous as well? That way, Christ would not have to die for our unrighteousness.

 

[thborn]

Predestination is for the believer to be conformed to the image of Christ, what predestination means clearly stated. Was this plan in place, before creation? Yes, the Lord Jesus slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Does God know who WILL come to Him? I think so, as God, obviously, is omniscient, can see into the future, prophecy proves, Isaiah 46:10. The plan for redemption was in place, predestined.

On the other hand, there is no scripture doctrine one is born damned or saved: this predestination a lie, contradicting some of the simplest, clear scripture. Everybody has the "job" to believe, or not, accept or reject the gospel. Calvinist predestination is one of the most monstrous, evil and perverse doctrines on the planet, making God a monster that damns babies, that makes a robotic man of no will, of no recourse, and, what, idiotically preaches to the hopelessly damned, that could not receive Christ, if they tried? Some very evil and stupid mad came up with that, did not find this in the Holy Bible! I don't know the words to state the absurdity of this, in light of the longsuffering God that contended with man, from the beginning, to choose right, a God that did what, spent thousands of years instructing men in obedience man is unable to attain to? I suppose there is a word for that idea, other than stupid: nuts.

In any event, I have a challenge for you. If you can slowly read and think about the following verses, come back and again claim anybody is born damned of God, claim that people have no choices, that people are not instrumental in their salvation, by choosing or rejecting God, the Lord Jesus, I challenge you to read these verses and make such a claim that Calvinism appears true, ever again. Calvinist predestination is evil claptrap:

I'm sorry, what I posted may have been a bit hasty, as I am not too familiar with what Calvinism actually is. I'm just grappling with the passage I'm alluded to, Romans 8:29-30. I'm disturbed, because I come from a free will background, but I know I've got to accept what God's Word truly says. I think the problem here is not unlike that in Hollywood time travel movies: if someone could go back and change the past, then you have time paradox. But if they could't change the past, then nobody has any free will. So how does one make sense of it all?

Right now the only solution I can see is that as God created believers (Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV), and foreknows believers, He knows what they would do if they had free will. Then God does something more: he predestines them to be conformed to Christ. Then he does something more: those people are then justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Does that mean they predestined to achieve salvation? Right now, I don't like it, but doesn't it have to, in some sense? Unless "justified" and "glorified" doesn't refer to final salvation, in which case "once saved always saved" would be untrue.

Perhaps the best thing is not to get too dogmatic about it. I mean, for the average guy or gal, at least. Scripture doesn't tell everyone to get a degree in theology or quantum physics, it tells one to believe in Jesus and to live like one is dead to the world and to serve others in kindness.

 

[thborn]

The more you think this through, the Calvinist delusion gets more and more convoluted and impossible to believe. Notice, for example, that your question at the end presupposes that God would be emotionally effected by having to watch His Son be tortured and murdered. This idea would fall on deaf ears if those ears were attached to a consistent Calvinist because they don't just believe that God is Sovereign, which is what the thrust of your point is based upon, but also that God is impassible and therefore God cannot be emotionally effected by anything at all, including the torture and death of His only begotten Son. So, in the Calvinist's mind, there is no heart ache, no anger, no devastation. Calvary, the very Passion of Christ itself, is not an act of supreme love and affection performed by a God who's heart aches and yearns for His people, but is just one more action, one more unavoidably predestined event that occurs during the Vulcan like, emotional void that is God's life.

Clete

Totally agree. I believe very much that God seeks a personal relationship with us. Throughout all of scripture God expresses emotion. I think also of Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. I'm no expert on Calvinsim...I'm guessing that there are different kinds of Calvinists, but I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.

 

[thborn]

That is an excellent post!

Calvinists and even those who don't call themselves "Calvinist" but believe Calvinist doctrine always seem to be ignorant of the scriptures as a whole. They read a single sentence or two here or there and decide that the entire bible should be understood through the lens of that one sentence and never consider that it aught to be the other way around.

The fact is, as you have shown so compellingly, that if Calvinistic predestination is true then the bible contradicts itself all over the place. What then is Paul talking about in Romans 8::29-30?

Well, without getting to much into details, the answer is simply that any time the bible talks about people being predestined, whether its Paul speaking or otherwise, it is talking in terms of groups, not specific individuals. So, with respect to Romans 8:29-30, Paul is speaking about the Body of Christ. God not only foreknew but predestined that there would be a Body of Christ and has also predestined that anyone found to be a member of it will be glorified. Indeed, anyone found to be a member of the Body of Christ HAS BEEN glorified because Christ has been glorified and we are in Him.
`

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

II Thessalonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

I had thought of that before, fleetingly, that God might be referring to the group or groups as a whole. You make a good argument for it. I don't know the answer and will have to think and pray about it. Another piece of Scripture that I am struggling with is Romans 9:16: It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9: 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Romans 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" This seems to me to be perhaps the other section of Scripture Calvinists would use to argue that God predestines people as individuals from beginning to end. Though, in the historical context, I guess Paul is most concerned about explaining how Gentiles could also be heirs.

On another note, this scripture clearly says that all are in need of mercy and grace. So, as others in this thread have already pointed out, anyone who actually says people are born good is wrong; Epheshians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

How does grace and choosing Christ and predestination and sanctification all fit together? I'm not sure.

 

[Clete]

Totally agree. I believe very much that God seeks a personal relationship with us. Throughout all of scripture God expresses emotion. I think also of Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. I'm no expert on Calvinism...I'm guessing that there are different kinds of Calvinists, but I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.

Indeed, there are "different kinds of Calvinists" but at bottom it's a matter of degree and consistency. The more squishy the Calvinist is on more controversial sounding doctrines, the more they depart from the foundational premises upon which the theology is constructed. Calvinists believe that God is immutable. And they aren't kidding. They believe that God cannot change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER - period. Every single doctrine that is distinctively Calvinist is based on that singular premise. A premise that is falsified by even the simplest surface reading of scripture. And I don't refer to any obscure passage in the book of Nahum that no one knows anything about, I refer to the very gospel itself....

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
¹⁴ And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

John 10: 17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.


That's three of hundreds of verses that falsify that God is immutable in the way the Calvinists teach. Of course God does not change with respect to His personality and character. He is unchangeably personal, relational, wise, loving, righteous, just, etc. The Calvinists, however, take a page out of Aristotle's and Plato's philosophy and thereby sow the seeds for gross error and even blasphemy.

 

[ttruscott]

Right now the only solution I can see is that as God created believers (Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV), and foreknows believers, He knows what they would do if they had free will. Then God does something more: he predestines them to be conformed to Christ.

This is no solution at all because if HE would do that for one, HE would do it for everyone without differentiation....no one would end in hell.

Calvinism claims that HE UNconditionally elects some but not others but have dropped the idea that by not electing the others HE is in fact choosing them (electing them) to hell...a logical extension of their idea that they reject because even they can see how blasphemous it is.

There is only one viable solution to all this and that is that our election and predestination to heaven as HIS Bride was HIS response to our putting our faith in HIM as our GOD and to accepting HIS marriage proposal by faith whereas those HE passed over for heaven were those who put their faith in HIS being a liar and a false god, forever becoming impossible to ever fulfill HIs purpose for their creation, ie, to be HIS bride.

Election and non-election were conditional, based upon the condition of where we would put our faith by our free will. We chose our FATES but then after we sinned, HE sent all sinners (both the reprobate and elect sinners) to live on earth, HE gave us predetermined LIVES to fulfill in them HIS promise of predestination to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification the best way possible for us.

 

[ttruscott]

... I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.

If HE predetermined everything in accord with the choices of HIS creation ie, according to their hopes and dreams then where is the blasphemy of utter aloofness? Isn't that a perfect mesh of free will and predestination for those who later lost their free will when they chose to rebel against HIM and became enslaved by evil's addicting power?

 

[ttruscott]

How does grace and choosing Christ and predestination and sanctification all fit together? I'm not sure.

ImCo:

The story of election and the fall:
1. GOD created everyone in HIS image at the same time before the creation of the physical universe. HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by our free will to put our faith in HIM as our GOD or reject HIM as a liar and a false god.

2. GOD then proclaimed to us HIS claims to be our creator GOD and called us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD. HE proclaimed the gospel of salvation to us about the natural and legal consequences of sin, specifically the sin of rejecting HIM as GOD or HIS purpose for us, and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son: Col 1:23 in which under heaven refers to all of creation.

3. As an expression of HIS love and to encourage us to accept HIS purpose for us to be HIS bride, HE promised that if we put our faith in HIM, HE would elect us, ie, choose us to be HIS bride and also would predestine us to fulfill our faith even if we should ever sin and lose our faith. Those who rejected HIM as their GOD and put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god would be passed over for election, not chosen to be HIS bride and not predestined to fulfill HIS purpose for them if they should sin this unforgivable sin as eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, but liable to judgement.

The story of the fall, judgement and sanctification:
4. So everyone created in HIS name committed their faith to HIM, becoming elect, or against HIM, becoming eternally evil and condemned on the spot.

5. The next order of business in accord with HIS great hatred to evil was to call all HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate non-elect so they could be judged. But some elect would not. They rebelled against damnation as being too unloving for a GOD who was love, for being too impulsive without giving the non-elect time to repent etc and anyway, they loved some of those to be damned and idolized them above GOD. Thus the elect were split into two, those who never sinned and those who became enslaved to evil but still under HIS promise of salvation.

6. To facilitate HIS plans for the redemption of the sinful elect HE next created the physical universe which all the sons of GOD saw and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This explains the meaning of Rom 1:20 that none have an excuse: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Consider: in which is HIS divinity and power more clearly seen, a study of what was made or watching HIM actually make the whole universe before your eyes!!! Which renders you totally without excuse ? especially when the study of nature has most of the pagan world believe they themselves are godly.

The sins of the elect made them liable to judgement with the reprobate so HE postponed the judgement upon the Satanic and made the sinful elect live together with the Satanic here on earth until they could have their eyes opened to their need for a saviour and to the eternal nature of the evil of their non-elect loved ones. This bit is found in the two part story of the tares, Matt 13, especially verses 27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?' [bring judgement upon them?]
29 ‘NO,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest....which states that the reason Satan and his demonic angels were NOT judged on the spot is because of the sinfulness of some of HIS elect!

This parable also reinforces the fact that we are sent here as sinners and not created here as sinners in verses: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. It might seem strange that the devil can move people around but for sure it does not say he can create them so to sow cannot mean to create for either the Son of Man or the devil. EXPLAIN cannot mean, tell us another hyperbolic metaphor so His answer is the plain truth no matter how weird it sounds and explains our transition from the spirit world, Sheol, to the world of mankind.

7. Thus the time of elect here on earth is a time of GOD's grace through a growing faith and repentance unto redemption and sanctification to fulfill HIS predestination of them to be HIS heavenly bride in accord with their free will faith before they chose to sin and lost it all. When the last sinful elect person repents fully and becomes fully sanctified, ie, heaven ready then, only then, that great and terrible day of our LORD will proceed.

 

[Nang]

The answer to Poly’s question is:

Hebrews 2:9-14

All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The answer to Poly’s question is:

Hebrews 2:9-14

All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.

Define "God's absolute sovereignty" for us, please.

Was God eternally sovereign?

When did He predestine things?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

The answer to Poly’s question is:

Hebrews 2:9-14

All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.

Thank you for that. One would be tempted to say, "I rest my case."

Folks, this is a classic example of how cults work. Read this man's book, read that man's book, so-and-so says: never simply thus saith the Lord. All their -ists and -isms are doctrines of men, where you have to read their books, in order for them to twist scripture truth into a pretzel. What you'll always get is a little scripture, but a lot of man's vain and lying blabber, a verse or two, then paragraphs of wholly worthless eisegesis. And why is this?

They can't prove their claims from scripture. Like this notion of predetermined salvation or damnation of man Holy Bible scripture does not support, the case simply must be made by injecting men's lies. Hence, you must read the false prophet's book, the lying doctrines of man that inject the lies, just like the devil in the Garden, as a matter of fact. Obviously, the lies are not in scripture. Yep. You need that man's book alright, to get perverted.

I have already presented the scripture that puts the lie to Calvinist predeterminism, right here in this thread. You believe the Holy Bible, the word of God, or some lying, pervert man. Simple as that.

The truth is, as opposed to this bait to read some man's lies, this is what should be advised of the Christian, first and foremost: "All confessing Christianity should read the Holy Bible."

Shoot! Here are the verses, again. If you can find Calvinist predeterminism in these verses, if you can't see the verses that simply and wholly contradict this utterly foul doctrine of predestination to damnation, you're either truly a blind idiot that needs salvation, that does not have the Spirit to understand scripture, 1 Corinthians 2:14, or, flatout, a devilish liar. Myself, I don't care about that, six of one and a half dozen of the other, in either case the word for the day is to repent of your lies against Holy God.

Only God's truth, His truth, alone, is important, and this is that indisputable truth, that man must choose, that the Lord draws all men, would have all men saved, but that it is on us to believe.

Calvinism is a very, very clear lie, in light of the word of God. You don't need the devil in the Garden, some 17th century pervert's book! You need the Holy Bible, the word of God. This is not even rocket science, where you should be getting truth, Christian. That is, from God alone and those that harmoniously teach from the word of God, with NO contradictions, period, like the plethora of truth below, that contradicts this Calvinist predestination nonsense, very well, and QED:

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You believe this scripture, from the inspired word of God, or you don't. And beware, bigtime, these that say they're of Calvin or any snake in the grass that the least contradicts Almighty God's truth.

1 Corinthians 1:9-13 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[ttruscott]

Only God's truth, His truth, alone, is important, and this is that indisputable truth, that man must choose, that the Lord draws all men, would have all men saved, but that it is on us to believe.

Have you ever considered that if our salvation depends upon our choosing to believe or not that a couple of problems present themselves?

1. Why does HE wait for someone for 100 years to see if they will repent and believe or not, yet other dies at 10 ysr or 30 years old, cutting their chance to believe short? We know our days are numbered and known by HIM: Job 14:5 A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set. and Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. so why does HE cut some shorter of life than others, giving them less time to repent? Surely loving kindness suggests that HE gives everyone an equal chance to repent and believe?

2. If some are in hell merely because they did not believe while living on earth then that means that if they repented unto belief on earth they would not be in hell. This implies that there are people in hell whose only problem is that they did not believe soon enough, ie, in all other aspects of their relationship with YHWH they could be saved but HE stopped their lives, stopped their opportunity to be saved. Is this a loving, righteous and just way to treat them?

This seems to be a direct contradiction to HIS being LOVE since scripture says love is patient, love is kind which implies that if a person could be saved, HE would wait for them to fulfill salvation for a millenia or even FOREVER, ie, NEVER would HE give up on them. It suggests that HIS loving patience is finite, even worldly, and is not an attribute of the Divine at all.

3. I know you are merely trying to contend against the Calvinist doctrine the GOD condemned people for no free will decision of their own to be evil but Arminius got it wrong also as he too (like Calvin) accepted the blasphemy of our being created on earth as sinful in Adam to be truth, sigh, which sinfulness enslaves our will to sin so that it is not free no matter how many choices we make.

The ability to choose doesn't prove a free will since a free will is the ability to choose any option untainted by any coercive force we cannot defeat...such as sin or GOD's declared will.

 

[Nang]

Define "God's absolute sovereignty" for us, please.

Total authority, rule, and control over all things.

Was God eternally sovereign?

God IS eternally sovereign (not "was").

When did He predestine things?

God's ordinances and promises are eternal, just as He is eternal.

Godly predestination exists in the eternal mind, heart, and soul of God Almighty. All creatures/creation is subject to an ordained destiny.

I Corinthians 15:24-28; Ephesians 2:11-14; Colossians 1:16-20

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Have you ever considered that if our salvation depends upon our choosing to believe or not that a couple of problems present themselves?

No, and that sounds like a personal problem. I presented abundant, clear scripture, and do not see the clear doctrines of God as debate material to hang out and twist in the wind, with man's carnal, defective creature logic and endless, specious arguments. You accept or reject His word, love and believe the truth, or love and believe the lie. That's all she wrote. You reject what I posted? Knock yourself out, but do so with somebody else. I'm certainly not doing the traditional page after page of trollish bickering from hell.

1 Timothy 6:3-6 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Clete]

Thank you for that. One would be tempted to say, "I rest my case."

Folks, this is a classic example of how cults work. Read this man's book, read that man's book, so-and-so says: never simply thus saith the Lord. All their -ists and -isms are doctrines of men, where you have to read their books, in order for them to twist scripture truth into a pretzel. What you'll always get is a little scripture, but a lot of man's vain and lying blabber, a verse or two, then paragraphs of wholly worthless eisegesis. And why is this?

They can't prove their claims from scripture. Like this notion of predetermined salvation or damnation of man Holy Bible scripture does not support, the case simply must be made by injecting men's lies. Hence, you must read the false prophet's book, the lying doctrines of man that inject the lies, just like the devil in the Garden, as a matter of fact. Obviously, the lies are not in scripture. Yep. You need that man's book alright, to get perverted.

I have already presented the scripture that puts the lie to Calvinist predeterminism, right here in this thread. You believe the Holy Bible, the word of God, or some lying, pervert man. Simple as that.

The truth is, as opposed to this bait to read some man's lies, this is what should be advised of the Christian, first and foremost: "All confessing Christianity should read the Holy Bible."

Shoot! Here are the verses, again. If you can find Calvinist predeterminism in these verses, if you can't see the verses that simply and wholly contradict this utterly foul doctrine of predestination to damnation, you're either truly a blind idiot that needs salvation, that does not have the Spirit to understand scripture, 1 Corinthians 2:14, or, flatout, a devilish liar. Myself, I don't care about that, six of one and a half dozen of the other, in either case the word for the day is to repent of your lies against Holy God.

Only God's truth, His truth, alone, is important, and this is that indisputable truth, that man must choose, that the Lord draws all men, would have all men saved, but that it is on us to believe.

Calvinism is a very, very clear lie, in light of the word of God. You don't need the devil in the Garden, some 17th century pervert's book! You need the Holy Bible, the word of God. This is not even rocket science, where you should be getting truth, Christian. That is, from God alone and those that harmoniously teach from the word of God, with NO contradictions, period, like the plethora of truth below, that contradicts this Calvinist predestination nonsense, very well, and QED:

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You believe this scripture, from the inspired word of God, or you don't. And beware, bigtime, these that say they're of Calvin or any snake in the grass that the least contradicts Almighty God's truth.

1 Corinthians 1:9-13 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

:first:

Excellent!

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

:first:

Excellent!

I thank you for this award, but must thank my very special parents, first, that made it possible for the world to be blessed with me. I love you Mommy and Daddy, wherever you've been all these years! I would also like to thank the Academy, thank all those at the Beverly Hills Straight Off the Couch Clinic, who've been with me through all eleven rehabs and nervous breakdowns. I would like to thank Jesus, my gardener, my new best friend during filming and love of my life these months, without whom I'd also not have known how to deal with all the serious property damage. I would also like to thank all my fans, that think of me all the time and love only me, but remember: you have to love yourself, first. Most of all, I'd like to thank my little dog, Fifi.

Though it's hardly possible anymore, in this thread, to be serious: thank you, Clete. It seems you like it when I have one of those, "Alright. Enough with the doctrines of men blather, already!" moments. It's just that sometimes you see a post that has the same effect as a Jehovah's Witness ringing your doorbell, or Satan coming in person, to offer you a bowl of fruit.

I have a hard time reconciling we have the New Testament for almost a couple thousand years, yet some people are still contradicting very clear scripture truth with all this debunked garbage from, also, generations ago, as if they can't read or have very brief attention spans. I've always found that so weird, to this day. It's as if spiritual blindness is some potent stupid pill, that kills reading comprehension. It really does, again 1 Corinthians 2:14, but I've always found this so strange, how a mind that knows anything of scripture can possibly say, "God created most people evil robots He purposes to damn, without recourse, before He created any robots," when scripture is clear God would have all men saved, but that it's up to us to choose God, repent and believe, etc. And how silly is it that this puts Holy God in the business of providing the devil a huge kingdom of the wicked, as it were, God the very author of irresistible evil? The Calvinist will blabber on and on, ad nauseam, about "irresistible grace" (which man cognitively resists very well, in the main), but say nothing of the other side of the coin, the irresistible evil that must also be, and evil, therefore, preordained of God! It's like all they're doing is presenting a two-headed, counterfeit coin. And, when you think about it, if many are called and few are chosen, irresistible evil wins for the many, God's very plan an evil, unavoidable disaster for most: this of a loving God? As a matter of fact, neither can the idiot Calvinist explain the origin of evil, why it doesn't come from very God, Who is Holy, Holy, Holy, in my Bible, how evil can exist outside God, if God's plan cannot be resisted? This thinking is as evil as it gets, as perverted as all hell! In any event, it really is like they can't read what's on the page, and Dick and Jane simple scripture statements the opposite of their lying claims, at that.

One could go on forever how stupid it all gets, God ordaining all things, allowing no resistance, everything predetermined. Alright then, Satan is a creature, also. To have any congruity, no other creature can either resist the Calvinist absolutely sovereign God, hence Satan was created to be Satan? If God made the personally unsovereign damned, by design, He also had to be the designer of temptation to irresistible evil, to facilitate damnation, yet James 1:13. And then what would the Calvinist have God doing, all these thousands of years? Throwing complaints at His evil robots, that are just responding to their programming? Is that simply nuts or what? Oh! And any statements of free will, anywhere in scripture, or any claim of common sense man that he did, indeed, have choices presented, and did, indeed, choose his course in life, did, indeed, make decisions resulting in good or evil, that's just an illusion, you see: don't believe your lying freewill that you use everyday. (I think one Calvinist once told me you are allowed to choose between Cornflakes and Cocoa Puffs for breakfast, yet unable to explain why the Cornflakes choice was not also preordained, or God is not capital ‘S’ Sovereign. Just another inexplicable tiptoe through the TULIPs…)

You know, you'd turn blue and die, if you held your breath until announcing I've become a Roman Catholic. But I'd become a Catholic, hands down, before I'd hang with a bunch of Calvinist perverts. There's pernicious, then there's really pernicious.

Somebody made a good comment here whether anybody became a Calvinist by studying the Bible. Definitely not Calvin. I strongly suspect schizophrenia or something. Too bad he didn’t live in modern times, though. He’d have done some bang-up DC Comics, dualistic, multiple personality disorder gods, at war with themselves, characters like the Batman Joker. Next time you hear anybody say, “You couldn’t make this stuff up!”, respond, “Calvin could.”

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Job 11:12 An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man.

 

[Clete]

The answer to Poly’s question is:

Hebrews 2:9-14

All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.

Since Nang is too lazy to do it herself, here's the text of the passage she claims is that answer to Poly's question...
`

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,​

This is hysterical if you ask me! This is a passage that shreds Calvinism to bits!

First of all, God was not always a man, He was not always called Jesus, He was not always "a little lower than the angels", nor did He remain in that state. God was not always dead, then He was dead, then He was alive never to die again. Also, we are told here that God "tasted death for everyone".

So much for both immutability and limited atonement! And that's just the first sentence of Nang's own proof text!

The next sentence is just as bad for the Calvinist!

'For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

Here we are taught that the Captain of our salvation was MADE PERFECT through sufferings. The Calvinist would have you believe that God is not only immutable and thus cannot be "made perfect" but that He is impassible and thus cannot suffer. Indeed, if the Calvinist is right, anything that suffers is imperfect, by definition, precisely because it is contingent and therefore mutable.

So much for both immutability and impassibility.

Oh! How I thank the Lord God in Heaven that Nang cited this passage! That's two sentences in and Calvinism is already a smoking pile of rubble. Let's skip down now to the last sentence...

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,"

I'm short on time and so I'll leave alone the point about God sharing in the partaking of flesh and blood accept to reiterate that God hasn't always been flesh (which He still is to this day, by the way) and He hasn't always been a partaker of blood (i.e. death). Once again, so much for immutability.

The real juicy part of this is at the end of the sentence...

So who had the power of death? Satan? Not according to the Calvinist! Indeed Nang herself, just three posts before this one said that God has "Total authority, rule, and control over all things." and when she said "all things", she meant precisely that. The Calvinist does NOT accept the idea that God delegates authority to anyone - period. Doing so would be a change and that would break God and they cannot accept that there was ever a time when God Himself did not have the power of death because again that would be a change and God would crumble.

So much for the Calvinist's version of God's sovereignty!


Calvinism is in direct and undeniable contradiction to Nang's own proof text. Don't believe me? Here it is from the horse's own mouth...


“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)

"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)



Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

`

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,​

This is hysterical if you ask me! This is a passage that shreds Calvinism to bits!

First of all, God was not always a man, He was not always called Jesus, He was not always "a little lower than the angels", nor did He remain in that state. God was not always dead, then He was dead, then He was alive never to die again. Also, we are told here that God "tasted death for everyone".

The Son of God; the Christ and second Person of the Trinity, exists forever as resurrected from death. See Revelation 1:17-18

Here, with your comments above, you ignore the Hypostatic Union existent in the Being of Jesus Christ, and deny Him His Deity fully retained in his humanity. You fail to discern and recognize the achievements of the Anointed Man perfectly harmonizing with the purposes of God.

Anyone, who has been anointed with the Holy Spirit of Christ, will read Hebrews and comprehend the passage as revealing the Father destroying the devil and death, through the provision of the Son, and the power of the Spirit. Only Triune God could purpose such events, and work such a miracle, in order to bring glory to His Name.

You would deny Him all these things, in your insane quest to prove Calvinists wrong.

Sad . . .

Instead of reading & quoting John Sanders (a mere "man"), and faulting Reformers as being followers of Calvin quotes, you also believe and approve the many errors posted on this site (by many other mere "men"). You could attempt a biblical approach to studying some sound Christology, which God's grace has provided to His children through saved and faithful Christians, who historically have evidenced the indwelling Holy Spirit in their lives and works . . . by first and foremost, desiring to glorify God rather than themselves.

But you are unwilling.

Which evidences what?

 

[Clete]

The Son of God; the Christ and second Person of the Trinity, exists forever as resurrected from death. See Revelation 1:17-18

Instead of making some doctrinal proclamation, why not just quote Revelation 1:17-18?!

Could it be cause the verse directly and undeniably contradicts Calvinist doctrine as well as directly affirming the post you're now trying to refute?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Jesus here is not only accepting worship from John but taking on a title only God Himself could rightly hold. Jesus is the First and the Last, He has always existed and will exist forever more! AMEN!

God, however, was not always called Jesus, He was not always in the flesh (hypostatically or otherwise), He most certainly was not always dead nor had He ever been resurrected from the dead never to die again having acquired from Satan the keys of Hades and Death as we learned, not only from this passage but also from the last piece of scripture you cited without directly quoting.

Here, with your comments above, you ignore the Hypostatic Union existent in the Being of Jesus Christ,

That's precisely correct! Jesus was God in the flesh - period. The so called "hypostatic union" is a butch of nonsense cooked up by Calvinists and other Augustinian theologians to wiggle their way around the fact the their supposedly immutable and impassible God could somehow become flesh, have emotions all over the place, lay down His own life (i.e. suffer flogging and then death on a cross) and then pick it back up again never to die again. In short, the Calvinists needed a way around the gospel and so the "hypostatic union" was hatched in their fertile imaginations.

and deny Him His Deity fully retained in his humanity.

Your definition of deity is false. It does not exist. It is pagan and no more real than Zeus, Apollo or Dianna who were the deities that those who conceived your god worshiped.

Jesus Christ is God Himself made flesh. He is the physical incarnation of Him who created all things.There is precisely zero distinction between Jesus Christ and Him who came before all things, created all things and in whom all things consist and have their being except that Christ was God in a body of flesh which He did not have and which did not exist when He created the universe and He had been given a name by which He had never before been named but that would BECOME the name above all names.

Face it Nang, you deny the very gospel itself in order to cling to a pagan Greek version of god that does not exist.

You fail to discern and recognize the achievements of the Anointed Man perfectly harmonizing with the purposes of God.

Isn't it interesting how easily lies flow from the mouths of Calvinists?!

Nang knew this was false when she said it. She hardly ever posts a word on TOL that doesn't contain an outright intentional lie. What could she possibly think could come from lying like this? I just do not get it.

Anyone, who has been anointed with the Holy Spirit of Christ, will read Hebrews and comprehend the passage as revealing the Father destroying the devil and death, through the provision of the Son, and the power of the Spirit. Only Triune God could purpose such events, and work such a miracle, in order to bring glory to His Name.

Actually anyone who reads it can understand that. It isn't written in code. It's perfectly clear plain English that directly contradicts the existence of a God that cannot change or who is incapable of suffering.

You would deny Him all these things, in your insane quest to prove Calvinists wrong.

Sad . . .

What's sad is that you show up on a Christian debate forum with no ability whatsoever to refute a single point I've made but instead think that someone might be persuaded by you showing up to spout intentional lies.

Instead of reading & quoting John Sanders (a mere "man"), and faulting Reformers as being followers of Calvin quotes, you also believe and approve the many errors posted on this site (by many other mere "men"). You could attempt a biblical approach to studying some sound Christology, which God's grace has provided to His children through saved and faithful Christians, who historically have evidenced the indwelling Holy Spirit in their lives and works . . . by first and foremost, desiring to glorify God rather than themselves.

If this were even half true you'd simply refute my arguments.

I didn't quote anyone in my previous post other than God Himself and the portion of His own word that YOU cited and then at the end I quoted John Calvin's own words which you yourself agree with and have affirmed more than once on this website!

But you are unwilling.

You're projecting, Nang.

I'll take all comers! And what's more is that I will deal with their actual arguments and with the passages of scripture that they use as proof texts and will cite original sources, while you, on the other hand, will hypocritically accuse me of teaches the doctrines of men not five sentences after having cited such doctrines as the hypostatic union of all things.


Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

Total authority, rule, and control over all things.

Let's see if you hold to that:

Does he control how many milliseconds will be in a child porn video?

God IS eternally sovereign (not "was")

I see you using the word "eternal." By "eternal" do you mean "timeless"? Because eternal does not mean timeless. It means unending duration.

So I ask again, rephrasing my question:

Was God sovereign before He created?

God's ordinances and promises are eternal, just as He is eternal.

So let's use your definition this time. I'll ask a question, then I have a follow-up question.

Did God ordain all things?

Godly predestination exists in the eternal mind, heart, and soul of God Almighty. All creatures/creation is subject to an ordained destiny.

I Corinthians 15:24-28; Ephesians 2:11-14; Colossians 1:16-20

Guess that answers my question, so here's my follow-up:

Did God ordain each pedophile to be a pedophile, and for those who make such videos, did God ordain how long each of them would be down to the picosecond?

If your answer is anything other than yes to both parts of that question, then your above statement, "All creatures/creation [are] subject to an ordained destiny" is falsified, because that would mean that all creatures/creation are NOT ordained nor destined to be that way.

If your answer IS yes, then the god you worship is not the God of the Bible, because such things DO NOT COME from the mind, heart, and soul of God Almighty, and to say they do is BLASPHEMY.