Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Evoken]

God died on the cross.

Ambiguous answer. Not to mention, that the Scriptures never make that exact statement.


Evo

 

[Mystery]

Ambiguous answer. Not to mention, that the Scriptures never make that exact statement.


Evo

They most certainly do, and I have been supplying you with those verses.

Not only did God die on the cross, but God also raised the body from the dead.

 

[red77]

No, I believe God reconciled everyone to Himself, but not all men accept the reconcilliation.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

Nevertheless, you are off topic.

The question here is whether or not God was in Christ when He was reconciling the world unto Himself. I say He was. AMR, godrulz, and Evoken say He was not.

Well, they would do in time and then the reconcilliation would be complete, as is God's will if I'm not mistaken...

As to this topic though, it'll be debated ad infinitum until all theological matters just don't actually 'matter' anyway, whatever the truth of this topic it will become apparent at some point anyway....

 

[Mystery]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood."

 

[Mystery]

"But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses."

 

[Mystery]

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Summary

As I expressed to Knight on another thread, I am glad that this important doctrine has been brought to debate. I am also encouraged that many now know that God, who appeared to us in the likeness of sinful flesh Romans 8:3 Philippians 2:5-7, died on a cross to reconcile the world unto Himself 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 and was raised because of our justification Romans 4:25 did not have two natures, two souls, two minds, and two unique identities.

As those who hold to an unbiblical view of the incarnation have pointed out, they think that the "one nature" of God abandoned the "other nature" of man at some point prior to or during the crucifixion, where they attempt to divide Jesus into two separate persons:

God... whom they claim did not and could not suffer and die for your sins

and a

Man... who was abandoned by God, and suffered and died with an independent mind, will, and soul.

They conclude that God, who was in Christ reconciling the world, was not in Christ during the time that the world was being reconciled. :dizzy:

The "two nature" theorists have no biblical support, and have in fact stripped us from our redemption, while at the same time stripping Jesus from His divine nature when it was the most pivitol point in History (His story).

:first: POTD

 

[Nang]

Mystery,

You can add Nang to your list along with AMR, Evo, Beloved, and godrulz.

You attempt to defend a very serious heresy.

 

[Mystery]

Mystery,

You can add Nang to your list along with AMR, Evo, Beloved, and godrulz.

You got it!

So far the following people deny that God was in Christ reconcilling the world unto Himself...

beloved
AMR
Evoken
godrulz
Nang

You attempt to defend a very serious heresy.

God was in Christ reconcilling the world unto Himself is a "very serious heresy"? :jawdrop:

I disagree.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Mystery,

You can add Nang to your list along with AMR, Evo, Beloved, and godrulz.

You attempt to defend a very serious heresy.

Heresy is.... claiming that God the Son didn't die for our sins. That's anti-gospel.

 

[Mystery]

:first: POTD

Thanks, Knight!

I couldn't have done it without the truth of the Bible.

 

[Nang]

Thanks, Knight!

I couldn't have done it without the truth of the Bible.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the Triune work of God; God the Father raised Jesus from death (Romans 6:4, Gal. 1:1), God the Son raised Himself from death (John 2:19), and God the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from death (Romans 8:11). This reveals the unity and power of the Godhead.

You claim it was the same work of God on the cross, as the Truine work of God raising Jesus Christ from the dead.

But this cannot be . . .

If the Triune God died on the cross, just as the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead, it would necessarily mean the entire Godhead died. If the entire Godhead died, all things and life in the universe, held together by the power of God, would have destroyed and ceased to be.

It is impossible for you to claim this same Triune Godhead (which cannot be separated) died. One member of the Godhead (i.e. the Son) could not act independantly from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Your error is heretical because it is anti-Trinitarian, and your bible study skills need sharpening.

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So far the following people deny that God was in Christ reconcilling the world unto Himself...

Oh, stop the weasel wording. It is a lame attempt to somehow extricate yourself from the heretical corner you have painted yourself into. You can run but you cannot hide, for you have been exposed.

Did Incarnate Christ possess a human soul or not? Be a man and answer the question with no weasel wording.

If you answer 'yes', then your 'one nature' view is wrong.

If you answer 'no', then you stand labeled the Apollinarian you have been thoroughly exposed to be and nothing you have to say with respect to man's reconciliation to God is to be taken seriously--your Apollinarianistic beliefs have weakened the efficacy of the Atonement.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh, stop the weasel wording. It is a lame attempt to somehow extricate yourself from the heretical corner you have painted yourself into. You can run but you cannot hide, for you have been

Spare us the drama.

The only heresy being spewed around here is you nut-balls that believe the Son of God didn't die for our sins. How about you go spew your anti-Christian garbage on some other website?

Your blatant blasphemy is wearing thin here at TOL.

 

[Mystery]

Did Incarnate Christ possess a human soul or not?

No. If Jesus had a human soul then He has to have two minds. The mind of God and the mind of a man.

This is why you are having so many problems grasping the truth. You think Jesus is double-minded, and you are intent on being like Him.

 

[red77]

They most certainly do, and I have been supplying you with those verses.

Not only did God die on the cross, but God also raised the body from the dead.

If God incarnate actually died on the cross then this makes no sense....

 

[Nang]

Spare us the drama.

The only heresy being spewed around here is you nut-balls that believe the Son of God didn't die for our sins. How about you go spew your anti-Christian garbage on some other website?

Your blatant blasphemy is wearing thin here at TOL.

It was because Jesus Christ was the Lord from heaven, that He was able to die in the flesh, as a Man, and then overcome death by the power of His resurrection.

There is no blasphemy in this, but rather, understanding of the Godly atonement of flesh and blood for the remission of worldly sins. If you people would study the greater minds of the church, you would do well, for much greater minds than ours have delved into these matters.

Nang

 

[Evoken]

They most certainly do, and I have been supplying you with those verses.

No, they do not. Feel free to cite a passage that says: "God died on the cross". Not Christ or Lord Jesus, not the Son of God/Man or anything else but simply that exact phrase.

Not only did God die on the cross, but God also raised the body from the dead.

Which is it? Did God die or did a body die? If God died (the divine nature) then how can God raise himself from the dead and also raise the body from the dead? If he did he would not be dead in the first place for he would need to be alive in order to raise himself from the dead. Something cannot be it's own cause.

If Christ is God and God raised Christ from the dead as we read (Acts 13:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Peter 1:21), then it cannot be that it is the divine nature, that is, God as God that died and was raised from the dead but the human nature, "the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Not a mere body without a soul (for a soul belongs to man by nature Genesis 2:7), not a mere imitation but a full human being, "a perfect man" (Ephesians 4:13).

Concerning the verse you cited:

Acts 3:14-15
"But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you. But the author of life you killed, whom God hath raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses."

This verse is referring to Christ, as we see in v14 the reference to the event in the Gospels where people asked for Barabbas to be released instead of Christ (Matthew 27:16-21). Note the distinction between Christ and God who raised him up from the dead (also made in the set of verses above). You are not acknowledging this distinction and are thus falling into error because of it.

Christ is indeed the author of life, after all, all things (life included) were made by him and apart from him there was nothing made that was made (John 1:3). That the Son, who is a person of the Trinity died on the cross for our sins is not being denied, what is being denied is your belief that the divine and not the human nature died and that Christ did not have a human soul but only a human body, something that is explicitly contradicted by Scripture (Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34).


Evo

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The only heresy being spewed around here is you nut-balls that believe the Son of God didn't die for our sins.

Jesus Christ could die for our sins only as a perfect man. God the Son could not die. That’s why He had to become a man and live for 30 years without sinning.

:think:

Correct. He is one person with two natures. keypurr fails to see that if He is not God (form of God=morphe), then He is also not man (exegetical parallel....form of a servant). keypurr's view is also problematic in that it has two Gods=polytheism. Christ as creature is also Arianism, so He is not a God in that view either. A triune understanding of the incarnation is the only way to understand all of the relevant biblical evidence.

Godrulz,

Of course, I agree, but I think keypurr is really looking for the truth.

Bob

:think:

Talk to your Pastor and get your doctrine aligned with the Scriptures. I doubt Enyart disagrees with the 'two-nature' position of the Incarnation.

 

[Mystery]

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the Triune work of God; God the Father raised Jesus from death (Romans 6:4, Gal. 1:1), God the Son raised Himself from death (John 2:19), and God the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from death (Romans 8:11). This reveals the unity and power of the Godhead.

That is what I have affirmed.

You claim it was the same work of God on the cross, as the Truine work of God raising Jesus Christ from the dead.

God, the Son, died on the cross. Do you deny that God died on the cross?

If the Triune God died on the cross, just as the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead, it would necessarily mean the entire Godhead died.

Is the entire "Triune God" in Christ when the Son prayed to the Father? Or did the Son depart during prayer time too? Was God in Christ when the world was being reconciled unto God? When was the world reconciled to God, at His death or some other event?

If the entire Godhead died, all things and life in the universe, held together by the power of God, would have destroyed and ceased to be.

Death is not the end of a person, just the separation from the body. When the body of Jesus died, God departed the body of Jesus. You have God departing the body of Jesus before He died, and a fourth person taking over to die for our sins. God died for our sins. He alone was the One reconcilling the world unto Himself, not counting our trespasses against us.

One member of the Godhead (i.e. the Son) could not act independantly from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If that is true, then you deny that God was in Christ reconcilling the world unto Himself through the death of His Son. Either God the Son died for our sins, or you have denied that the Son is God.

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."