Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I dont agree with that assesment at all.. I believe its correct to say that the man jesus christ was generated or begotten fron eternity and that he is the only man that was uniquley begotten from the very essence of Deity

If you don't agree, where is your biblical support for such a strange view?

From your posts I assumed you were some sort of supralapsarian Calvinist. If you are, and you believe Christ pre-existed as a man, then you have strayed far from our doctrines.

I recommend you refresh your understanding by reviewing this along with the Scripture references shown.

 

[Sozo]

Is this one nature God, man, or a 50-50? (the correct answer is 100-100, like in marriage).

Thank you for proving that your view of Jesus is unbiblical and heretical.

A "marriage" is between two different beings.

You, like the other anti-Christ cultists, are affirming that Jesus is two beings in one body.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, and as ApologeticJedi affirmed, that is Nestorianism.

It's no surprise that you have another Jesus than the one of the Bible.

 

[Sozo]

Sozo, did you say that Jesus wasn't human?

No, I affirm that Jesus does not have a human soul and a divine soul. He does not have two personas that fused into one body at the incarnation, and unfused at the cross.

As the Bible affirms, and AMR has to pervert (like he does all the Bible), God was manifest in the flesh and the EXACT representation of the divine nature, not a human nature, (although in a human body that God prepared for HIM; that is, God the Son), the One who created ALL things. He "appeared" as a man in the "likeness: of sinful flesh.

These are the things the Bible affirms, and these are what I believe. No where does the Bible say that Jesus has a human "nature".

 

[beloved57]

arm says

If you don't agree, where is your biblical support for such a strange view?

It is your view that is biblically strange if you hold that The Divine Son of God, The 2nd person of the Trinity was begotten or generated..thats heresy at the least if not outright blasphemy..

Jesus christ as the God Man mediator says this jn 17:

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Scripture plainly is intimating that he had a mediatorial glory before the world began..

In the capacity of mediator he had to be Man and God..

1 tim 2:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now do you suppose Jesus was not the mediator for old test saints ? If yes he had to be a man before the incarnation..

From your posts I assumed you were some sort of supralapsarian Calvinist. If you are, and you believe Christ pre-existed as a man, then you have strayed far from our doctrines.

I never have identified with your beliefs sir..

If you are, and you believe Christ pre-existed as a man

I sure do believe that..

dan 3:

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”[a]


1cor 15 47

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

I recommend you refresh your understanding by reviewing this along with the Scripture references shown.

i recommend you read this:

C:\Documents and Settings\HP_Administrator\My Documents\biblical studies\Studies on Christ's Eternal Sonship I.htm17.htm

 

[Sozo]

"And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."

Since Jesus is returned to the glory that He had prior to the creation of the world, then it is impossible for Him to have two natures (which would include a human soul that did not pre-exist before the incarnation), unless you want to believe that the one who died on the cross was annhilated at the resurrection.

 

[beloved57]

"And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."

Since Jesus is returned to the glory that He had prior to the creation of the world, then it is impossible for Him to have two natures (which would include a human soul that did not pre-exist before the incarnation), unless you want to believe that the one who died on the cross was annhilated at the resurrection.

obviously you dont see my point dude. I believe Jesus had two natures before he was born on earth..Have not you read my post ? or maybe these things are just too high for you to concentrate on...

 

[Lighthouse]

Jesus has, and only ever had, one nature. And that nature is divine. And the divine died on the cross. If not, then there is no hope for any of us.

 

[Sozo]

obviously you dont see my point dude. I believe Jesus had two natures before he was born on earth..Have not you read my post ? or maybe these things are just too high for you to concentrate on...

Actually, I'm ignoring your posts, so my post was written without consideration of anything you have said.

However, now that I see that you believe that Jesus has always had two natures, I have no interest in anything you might say in the future.

 

[Ecumenicist]

So Sozo, does this mean you repent regarding your own personal sense of having
2 natures, flesh and spirit, and of being perfected in the spirit regardless of what your
fleshly nature does?

 

[Sozo]

So Sozo, does this mean you repent regarding your own personal sense of having
2 natures, flesh and spirit, and of being perfected in the spirit regardless of what your
fleshly nature does?

I'm not God, so I'm not two beings in one. I am a new creation. Born with one nature, and received a new nature.

 

[beloved57]

Actually, I'm ignoring your posts, so my post was written without consideration of anything you have said.

However, now that I see that you believe that Jesus has always had two natures, I have no interest in anything you might say in the future.

No problem..:surf: even though it was my post you commented too.

 

[Sozo]

No problem..:surf: even though it was my post you commented too.

No, I didn't. You just happen to use the same verse I did.

 

[beloved57]

lighthouse says

Jesus has, and only ever had, one nature. And that nature is divine. And the divine died on the cross. If not, then there is no hope for any of us.

So you deny he is a man ?

1 tim 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[beloved57]

No, I didn't. You just happen to use the same verse I did.

oh ok at least you consistent in something..

 

[Traditio]

If we lessening the meaning of "nature" to meaning only that Jesus was a reflection of humanity, then we devised somethin all groups would readily agree upon. Even the monophsitists would agree that Christ was a reflection of humanity.

Right. I am saying that Jesus possessed humanity.

Hypostatically united? Are you trying to turn it into an adverb? What would hypostatically mean?

Under a hypostasis. A hypostasis means "a. something that stands under and supports; foundation.
b. the underlying or essential part of anything as distinguished from attributes; substance, essence, or essential principle. "

IE, a person.

What I am saying is that Christ is the second person of the Blessed Trinity. The Second Person of the Holy Trinity is both fully God and fully man (And remember, Godhood is not the same thing as manhood. So he possesses truly two distinct sets of properties). Yet, there is not a man, and then a God, but there is a God-man. So the person is Christ who possesses both Divinity in its fullness and manhood in its fullness, and both the Divinity and the Godhood are inseperably united as one Person, Jesus Christ.

I liked your explanation and had no problem with it. I do have a problem with the idea that God was somehow divorced from the life of Jesus in any real way. As you said, Jesus was 100% God. Whatever Jesus did, the Second Person felt - in fact, it was the second person. There is no dichotomy necessary. The Second Person of the Trinity felt physical death.

I agree. The Second Person of the Holy Trinity suffered and died. Natures cannot suffer and die. Persons suffer and die. So if through His human nature Jesus Christ died, it was not solely the nature that suffered and died, but truly the entire Person, Jesus Christ the God-man who suffered and died.

Do you see?

 

[godrulz]

Thank you for proving that your view of Jesus is unbiblical and heretical.

A "marriage" is between two different beings.

You, like the other anti-Christ cultists, are affirming that Jesus is two beings in one body.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, and as ApologeticJedi affirmed, that is Nestorianism.

It's no surprise that you have another Jesus than the one of the Bible.

Jesus is 100% Deity and 100 % Humanity in one person. He is not a 50-50 cereal cream entity.

I was not clear, Mr. Jump to wrong conclusions to create straw men. Some people think marriage is to be giving 50-50 each. This is actually selfish. True love gives 100% by each person to the other even if the other person only gives 10%. 50% would be withholding love. I threw it in as an analogy that has little to do with the nature of the incarnation involving God, not two humans coming together as one in a one sense, but not in a physical, literal merging. Forget I put it there if you cannot understand the minor point.

We are NOT saying Jesus is two beings in one body. Only the Word became flesh, not God and angels, or two men, or the Father and Jesus, etc. God became flesh, but that does not mean the person of the Father and Holy Spirit incarnated (Jn. 1:1-14).

I affirm the triune understanding of God, the Deity and resurrection of Christ, virgin conception, incarnation, etc. To call me a cultist, is to call yourself one since we agree on these essentials. The exact nature of God becoming man is not spelled out like a systematic theology book, hence the speculations of the early church as various heresies compromised biblical truth. We do not exhaustively understand how God relates as a triune being nor how God becoming man affects deity/humanity in one person. We must speculate and reason within certain parameters. AMR may be close, right or wrong on some things, but neither of us believes in 4 distinctions in the triune God (?!) as Knight wrongly assumes, and we do not believe in two beings or two persons in one Christ, as you wrongly assume (as usual, semantics about person and nature are stumbling you).

AMR has tried to do good exegesis with your 3 proof texts. I concur that your misapplication of them to the incarnation is not warranted and does not disprove the orthodox, historical understanding of the incarnation.

Within reason, nuanced views on this or sanctification (old battle), do not determine Christian vs cult, except in your mind. JWs are Arians and Mormons are polytheists. Call them cults, but saying that Jesus is one person who is the God-Man, held by virtually every true Christian since the first century, does not make one a godless pervert/unbeliever.

Grace, faith in Christ, not theological perfection and sophistication (which you lack), are the basis for eternal life (I Jn. 5:11-13, not accepting or rejecting specific creeds and their wording).

 

[godrulz]

lighthouse says



So you deny he is a man ?

1 tim 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This is post-resurrection. He is the God-Man forever, something He was not before the incarnation when humanity was added to Deity in one person. He is God manifest in the flesh (which does not mean the Trinity incarnated, right? vs an angel come in the flesh...JW).

 

[beloved57]

trad says

What I am saying is that Christ is the second person of the Blessed Trinity. The Second Person of the Holy Trinity is both fully God and fully man (And remember, Godhood is not the same thing as manhood. So he possesses truly two distinct sets of properties). Yet, there is not a man, and then a God, but there is a God-man. So the person is Christ who possesses both Divinity in its fullness and manhood in its fullness, and both the Divinity and the Godhood are inseperably united as one Person, Jesus Christ

I agree with this statement , the only thing I would add is that the man was begotten in eternity and joined the Divine Son who always existed..

I agree. The Second Person of the Holy Trinity suffered and died.

however this part i do not agree because God cannot die...only the man..

 

[PaulMcNabb]

however this part i do not agree because God cannot die...only the man..

Of course God can die. In fact He did on the cross. And God can be born. In fact He did in Bethlehem. And God can be resurrected. In fact He did outside of Jerusalem.

All of those are processes: birth is when the united spirit and body, a single being/person, leaves the mother and starts existing on its own; death is when the spirit leaves the body; resurrection is when the spirit is united with a perfect, glorified body. Jesus experienced these exactly as the rest of us humans did, do, and will experience it.

Spirits can't "die." So God as an eternal, spiritual being can't "die" and neither can human spirits "die." God and mankind experienced death because their spirits/persons separate from their physical bodies.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Son of God, was born, lived, died, and resurrected. He has only one "nature." While in mortality, Jesus experienced all the pain, suffering, and temptations that the rest of us do, except Jesus overcame all and never succumbed to temptation. He was fully human in that He fully experienced mortal life as the rest of humanity experiences mortal life. He was fully God in that He, as a person/spirit, was God before, during, and after His mortal life and also in that He alone could choose to die.

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" John 5:26
​

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:17-18​

 

[beloved57]

Of course God can die.

Blaspemy dude..