Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Evoken]

AMR, Evoken....

God said that at some point in the past it had never entered His mind that people would be burning their children to Baal. Yet, later that is in fact what happened.

Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ ​

According to you this must mean God made a mistake. :dizzy:

THE TRUTH IS....
While God was wrong in thinking such a thing would never happen it wasn't a mistake on His part, instead it was another example of man's ability to use our will to do the unthinkable.

He forbade human sacrifice long before that:

Leviticus 18:21
"Thou shalt not give any of thy seed to be consecrated to the idol Moloch, nor defile the name of thy God: I am the Lord."

Deuteronomy 18:10
"Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard"

So in a sense it did enter his mind, otherwise he would not have forbidden it. By it not entering his mind it simply expresses the fact that such practices are contrary to his standards.


Evo

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He forbade human sacrifice long before that:

Leviticus 18:21
"Thou shalt not give any of thy seed to be consecrated to the idol Moloch, nor defile the name of thy God: I am the Lord."

Deuteronomy 18:10
"Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard"

So in a sense it did enter his mind, otherwise he would not have forbidden it. By it not entering his mind it simply expresses the fact that such practices are contrary to his standards.

I said.... "at some point in the past it had never entered His mind" after all that is what God said "nor did it come into My mind".

Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time it HAD entered His mind, it hadn't entered His mind! :duh:

Do you have any regard for God's word? Any at all? Or is winning an argument more important to you?

 

[Evoken]

God tells the Israelites that He planted them, watered them, nurtured them, did everything He could for them and He expected good grapes to come forth. But instead bad grapes grew. God then said, “What more could I have done?” He is taking away the argument you just used, Evo. He is saying the fault does not lie with His failed plan but with the stubbornness of the Israelites.

So instead of listening to creeds and false doctrines, listen to God’s own words.

Fair enough, point granted (take note Knight). However your line in red is not appreciated Where have I accused you of following false doctrines? I believe what I do as honestly and as firmly as I am sure you believe what you do. So I don't think such slants are conductive to dialogue.


Evo

 

[Lighthouse]

I said.... "at some point in the past it had never entered His mind" after all that is what God said "nor did it come into My mind".

Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time IT had entered His mind, it hadn't entered His mind! :duh:

Do you have any regard for God's word? Any at all? Or is winning an argument more important to you?

Not to mention he did not forbid it until after it happened. Just like He did not forbid murder before the first murder.

 

[Varangian]

Not to mention he did not forbid it until after it happened. Just like He did not forbid murder before the first murder.

So then you accept that Deuteronomy and Leviticus weren't written by Moses? Because the time period when Israel worshipped Baal and/or Moloch was well after his death.

 

[Lighthouse]

So then you accept that Deuteronomy and Leviticus weren't written by Moses? Because the time period when Israel worshipped Baal and/or Moloch was well after his death.

I don't know who wrote them.:idunno:

 

[Evoken]

Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time IT had entered His mind, it hadn't entered His mind! :duh:

Well Knight, you can do that with everything in the Scriptures, starting from Genesis. It sort of invalidates the point you are trying to make with those verses.


Evo

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So then you accept that Deuteronomy and Leviticus weren't written by Moses? Because the time period when Israel worshipped Baal and/or Moloch was well after his death.

:sozo: Stay on TOPIC!!!!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Well Knight, you can do that with everything in the Scriptures, starting from Genesis.

Do what??? :idunno:

It sort of invalidates the point you are trying to make with those verses.

How so? What are you talking about?

God says burning children to Baal was such an abomination that it hadn't even entered His mind. Do you take Him at His word or not?

 

[Varangian]

If at the time Yahweh spoke to Jeremiah it had never occurred to him that the Israelites would sacrifice their children to the various Canaanite gods (Ba'al is not the name of specific deity, but rather a generic title meaning master or lord which the Canaanites applied to their various gods), then it would make no sense that Moses would've forbidden them to do so prior to them even entering Canaan. In fact, according the Biblical narrative, no such sacrifices took place until the 2nd generation of Israelites who lived in Canaan. Either the statement in Jeremiah is hyperbole or the statements in Leviticus/Deuteronomy are not really commands given by Yahweh through Moses.

 

[Sozo]

Thanks for reading it. Not sure I follow you here. What point are you trying to make? This will help me understand the issue.

I read your post, but didn't quote it because of the length.

When you are born in this world what identifies you as a man? Your body, soul, and spirit? If the body is destroyed do you cease being a man? Are those who are absent from the body and present with the Lord, void of their identity? Since you believe that Jesus is "fully man", does He have a soul that did not exist before He was born? When Jesus died on the cross, was He still "fully man"? Was He still "fully man" when His body laid in the tomb? Is He still "fully man" as He sits in heaven?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If at the time Yahweh spoke to Jeremiah it had never occurred to him that the Israelites would sacrifice their children to the various Canaanite gods (Ba'al is not the name of specific deity, but rather a generic title meaning master or lord which the Canaanites applied to their various gods), then it would make no sense that Moses would've forbidden them to do so prior to them even entering Canaan. In fact, according the Biblical narrative, no such sacrifices took place until the 2nd generation of Israelites who lived in Canaan. Either the statement in Jeremiah is hyperbole or the statements in Leviticus/Deuteronomy are not really commands given by Yahweh through Moses.

People, people, people..... READ!!! I didn't say "at the time Yahweh spoke to Jeremiah".

READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON THEM!!!

Otherwise we end up wasting time and wasting posts.

I said.... "at some point in the past it had never entered His mind" after all that is what God said "nor did it come into My mind".

Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time it HAD entered His mind, it HADN'T entered His mind!

 

[Lion]

Fair enough, point granted (take note Knight). However your line in red is not appreciated Where have I accused you of following false doctrines? I believe what I do as honestly and as firmly as I am sure you believe what you do. So I don't think such slants are conductive to dialogue.


Evo

I apologize.

 

[Lion]

If at the time Yahweh spoke to Jeremiah it had never occurred to him that the Israelites would sacrifice their children to the various Canaanite gods (Ba'al is not the name of specific deity, but rather a generic title meaning master or lord which the Canaanites applied to their various gods), then it would make no sense that Moses would've forbidden them to do so prior to them even entering Canaan. In fact, according the Biblical narrative, no such sacrifices took place until the 2nd generation of Israelites who lived in Canaan. Either the statement in Jeremiah is hyperbole or the statements in Leviticus/Deuteronomy are not really commands given by Yahweh through Moses.

God isn’t saying to Jeremiah that He just then realized it. He is saying that when people first started doing it He couldn’t believe it because it was so abominable.

It’s like me telling my son about a past event: Well son, when I was eleven, my best friend punched me in the face. It was so unexpected I didn’t even duck. I never thought Bobby would hit me. It never entered my mind.

Get it?

 

[Newman]

I read your post, but didn't quote it because of the length.

When you are born in this world what identifies you as a man? Your body, soul, and spirit? If the body is destroyed do you cease being a man? Are those who are absent from the body and present with the Lord, void of their identity? Since you believe that Jesus is "fully man", does He have a soul that did not exist before He was born? When Jesus died on the cross, was He still "fully man"? Was He still "fully man" when His body laid in the tomb? Is He still "fully man" as He sits in heaven?

my being made of matter; yes; no; no; no; yes; yes-ish; yes-ish

 

[Evoken]

Do what??? :idunno:

You said: "Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time it HAD entered His mind, it hadn't entered His mind!"

Implying somehow that since there was a time before Leviticus and Deuteronomy before such things were not explicitly forbidden, that God was somehow ignorant or something of the sort. But if simply going back to some time prior to anything is proof that something didn't enter God's mind, then, as I said, you can do that with everything in Scripture. It makes the point that you are trying to make with the verses in Jeremiah...well...pointless.

God says burning children to Baal was such an abomination that it hadn't even entered His mind. Do you take Him at His word or not?

The right word is "heart" actually: "And they have built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Ennom, to consecrate their sons and their daughters to Moloch: which I commanded them not, neither entered it into my heart, that they should do this abomination, and cause Juda to sin." (Jeremiah 32:30).

But even granting that the word is "mind", the point I made in my first reply stands. That such practices didn't enter into his mind simply mean that they are contrary to his standards, as can be seen from the verses I cited. Those verses actually invalidate any attempt to use Jeremiah for the purposes that you cited it.

I see no reason to think that God didn't know what his own creation is capable of doing. Even in the open view God can know wether or not people are thinking about burning children to Baal, he doesn't needs to wait before they do it to know they are capable of it. What you seem to be implying here is that God cannot know anything about people before they actually do it and that it is not only after they do it that it actually enters his mind and forbids it (see Lighthouse's post). Is God really so ignorant of human psychology?


Evo

 

[Varangian]

Therefore... at some point in the past, prior to the time it HAD entered His mind, it HADN'T entered His mind!

If the Biblical account is to be taken as "inerrant", which I assume from other statements you do, then it HAD occurred to Yahweh that they would do this prior to the time they had entered Caanan which was hundreds of years before the time of Jeremiah, and that it had in fact occurred to him even prior to the first incidents of it, which were also hundreds of years prior to the time of Jeremiah.

 

[Varangian]

God isn’t saying to Jeremiah that He just then realized it. He is saying that when people first started doing it He couldn’t believe it because it was so abominable.

Except that the specific incidents he's referring to are contemporary to Jeremiah, not from Israel's distant past. But even if were referring to the first incidents of it, it would still make no sense, as he had already forbidden it 1-2 generations prior to those incidents.

 

[Evoken]

I apologize.

Not that it was needed but apology accepted :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Except that the specific incidents he's referring to are contemporary to Jeremiah, not from Israel's distant past. But even if were referring to the first incidents of it, it would still make no sense, as he had already forbidden it 1-2 generations prior to those incidents.

:sigh:

Read this post over and over and over. Don't stop reading it until you get it. When you finally get it report back to us. If you don't get it please stop posting in this thread and may God have mercy on your soul because you are an idiot.