Who’s it to?

[Derf]

So, that would destroy MAD if true.

Please explain.

 

[Idolater]

Please explain.

Luke was Paul's buddy. If Luke and Acts were written to this supposed high priest of Israel (tribe of Levi, Old Testament Old Covenant priesthood) and Acts ends on Paul getting to Rome, preaching the Kingdom of God (which was supposed to be for Old Covenant Israel under Levitical priests), then MAD is dead. What began as a regional movement metamorphosed into a global movement over the course of Luke-Acts. It wasn't two different people and two different programs. The New Covenant is with Israel, Judah, and the Gentiles.

 

[Right Divider]

Luke was Paul's buddy.

Not until many years later. Luke was hanging with the twelve until Acts 16. Interesting that Peter disappears from Acts in chapter 15. Coincidence? No!

If Luke and Acts were written to this supposed high priest of Israel (tribe of Levi, Old Testament Old Covenant priesthood) and Acts ends on Paul getting to Rome, preaching the Kingdom of God (which was supposed to be for Old Covenant Israel under Levitical priests), then MAD is dead.

The fake caricature straw-man version of "MAD" is in grave danger from your attack.
The real thing is still perfectly safe.

The "kingdom of God" that Paul was preaching is NOT the same kingdom as Christ was sending the twelve to preach was at hand. You continue to pretend and conflate.

What began as a regional movement metamorphosed into a global movement over the course of Luke-Acts. It wasn't two different people and two different programs.

There were Jews and gentiles in both programs regardless of your fake "MAD".

The New Covenant is with Israel, Judah, and the Gentiles.

The new covenant is between God and Israel just like scripture says. Jer 31 and Heb 8.

 

[Hoping]

There was, starting around 41AD. He was a son of Annas.

Interesting.
Can you give the source of that finding?

 

[Derf]

Interesting.
Can you give the source of that finding?

I'll let you look it up, as I did. Josephus is a good place to start.

 

[Derf]

Not until many years later. Luke was hanging with the twelve until Acts 16. Interesting that Peter disappears from Acts in chapter 15.

Do you have scripture for that assertion?

 

[Derf]

Luke was Paul's buddy. If Luke and Acts were written to this supposed high priest of Israel (tribe of Levi, Old Testament Old Covenant priesthood) and Acts ends on Paul getting to Rome, preaching the Kingdom of God (which was supposed to be for Old Covenant Israel under Levitical priests), then MAD is dead. What began as a regional movement metamorphosed into a global movement over the course of Luke-Acts. It wasn't two different people and two different programs. The New Covenant is with Israel, Judah, and the Gentiles.

MAD as a means of dividing believers into Jew and Gentile is already problematic, except where it sees the church as an in between state when the outer court is trampled by the Gentiles for a time times and half a time, perhaps, or something similar.

 

[Derf]

Not until many years later. Luke was hanging with the twelve until Acts 16. Interesting that Peter disappears from Acts in chapter 15.

Do you have scripture for that assertion?

I'll take your silence as a negative response. @Idolater, back to you.

 

[Idolater]

MAD as a means of dividing believers into Jew and Gentile is already problematic, except where it sees the church as an in between state when the outer court is trampled by the Gentiles for a time times and half a time, perhaps, or something similar.

I don't see any of that in Acts 13, here's what I do see, it just looks like a 'transition' of the New Covenant.

"
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
"

There's zero indication that "the word of God" spoken to "Men of Israel" (v. 16), "all the people of Israel" (v. 24), "children of the stock of Abraham" (v. 26) was different from the word of God spoken to "the Gentiles" (v. 46).

That word of God is the New Covenant.

 

[Derf]

I don't see any of that in Acts 13, here's what I do see, it just looks like a 'transition' of the New Covenant.

"
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
"

There's zero indication that "the word of God" spoken to "Men of Israel" (v. 16), "all the people of Israel" (v. 24), "children of the stock of Abraham" (v. 26) was different from the word of God spoken to "the Gentiles" (v. 46).

That word of God is the New Covenant.

I'm more inclined to see that as the gospel, but I agree that it was the same for Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Idolater]

I'm more inclined to see that as the gospel, but I agree that it was the same for Jews and Gentiles.

Yeah v. 32 " ... we declare unto you glad tidings ..." (= Good News = Gospel = "the word of God" in v. 46)

 

[Hoping]

I don't see any of that in Acts 13, here's what I do see, it just looks like a 'transition' of the New Covenant.

"
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
"

There's zero indication that "the word of God" spoken to "Men of Israel" (v. 16), "all the people of Israel" (v. 24), "children of the stock of Abraham" (v. 26) was different from the word of God spoken to "the Gentiles" (v. 46).

That word of God is the New Covenant.

I think instead of using the word "transition" I would use the word "illustration".
"It" was there from the time of Noah, but Paul wrote of the graceful gifts from God of repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of past sins, the gift of tongues, etc., and enduring faithfully till the end.
"It" was grace, by which we have access, through Jesus Christ, to God.

 

[Idolater]

I think instead of using the word "transition" I would use the word "illustration".
"It" was there from the time of Noah, but Paul wrote of the graceful gifts from God of repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of past sins, the gift of tongues, etc., and enduring faithfully till the end.
"It" was grace, by which we have access, through Jesus Christ, to God.

I used 'transition' because all of what you mention happened, but it all happened in a 'crescendo' leading up to v. 46 " Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold . . . " That's the transition I see. The "Then".

 

[Hoping]

I used 'transition' because all of what you mention happened, but it all happened in a 'crescendo' leading up to v. 46 " Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold . . . " That's the transition I see. The "Then".

OK, I was looking at it in a much grander scale than just to those Jewish unbelievers.

 

[Idolater]

OK, I was looking at it in a much grander scale than just to those Jewish unbelievers.

I'm looking at it at the scale where Luke & Acts were written with Paul's approval and are possibly addressed to a high priest in Jerusalem, and what that means to the truth of MAD.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't see any of that in Acts 13, here's what I do see, it just looks like a 'transition' of the New Covenant.

"
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
"

There's zero indication that "the word of God" spoken to "Men of Israel" (v. 16), "all the people of Israel" (v. 24), "children of the stock of Abraham" (v. 26) was different from the word of God spoken to "the Gentiles" (v. 46).

That word of God is the New Covenant.

The word of God to the Jews was that their Messiah had come.
The new covenant will not come in until Christ returns in His glory.

The gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles had nothing to do with covenants.

 

[Derf]

The word of God to the Jews was that their Messiah had come.
The new covenant will not come in until Christ returns in His glory.

The gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles had nothing to do with covenants.

But he was speaking to "men of Israel".

 

[glorydaz]

But he was speaking to "men of Israel".

Yes, as instructed by the Lord.

 

[Idolater]

Yes, as instructed by the Lord.

Then you appear to be in conflict with yourself Glory. Luke records the establishment of the Eucharist that Christ instituted with the Eleven at the Last Supper. This is not Old Covenant, Mosaic Law. And it is new. And the Lord says, "This is the New Testament".

So promoting Luke to this supposed high priest Theophilus, is the New Covenant, it's contained in Luke. In Acts 13 (while it's already quite long), there's no reason to think that basically the whole Gospel of Luke isn't also implied in that speech or sermon Paul spoke to his audience.

(I can read Acts 13 in a few minutes, but Paul was elaborating for a whole morning and afternoon probably, Luke just wrote down the main points of what Paul actually said to them those days, not every single word.)

Paul told them the New Covenant (remember Luke is included by implication in Acts 13) justifies and that the Old Covenant can't justify. This has to be the same thing Peter preached to Israel, otherwise it would run afoul of Paul's cursing of any 'Gospel' in conflict with his own, which we just saw in Acts 13, at least does not promote following the Mosaic law as if it justifies. He contradicts that idea unequivocally.

 

[Hoping]

The word of God to the Jews was that their Messiah had come.
The new covenant will not come in until Christ returns in His glory.

The new covenant came in at the shedding of the blood and death of Christ.
It is written..."And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:24)
Will you alienate yourself from the "better things than that of Abel"?

The gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles had nothing to do with covenants.

I wonder who wrote Eph 2:12?...
..."That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"
I consider being part of the new covenant pretty "good news".
I rejoice with the hope, and for being enabled to be with God in this world.
You should try it !