glorydaz
Well-known member
Two nonsensical posts in a row. Do you two sit around and think of problems that would never exist in the real world?
Who’s it to?
- Thread starter Derf
- Start date
Derf
Well-known member
Me, too.
So how do you think they worked it out so that Peter did not preach to Gentiles and Paul did not preach to Jews?
glorydaz
Well-known member
In the first place, I think you're making way too much of the handshake. Quite simply, they "perceived the grace" that was given to Paul, and they backed off. That, coupled with the Cornelius event, convinced Peter that Paul was now the "chosen vessel" to preach the gospel of grace....to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
When Paul Gal. 2:9 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Besides, there is no feasible way to do what you're suggesting they would have to do. Crowd control?
Acts. 14:3-5
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. 4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
My point exactly.
They both preached to both, ie. whomever was in the crowd that gathered to listen to them.
Derf
Well-known member
Ever wonder why John deals so much with loving the brethren in his epistles? If he was writing to a church the had both Jew and gentile believers, as is obvious from 3rd John, and we know there was conflict even between Hellenic and "regular" Jews when the seven (deacons) were chosen, then you can see why he felt the need to resolve the conflict by telling Jews and gentiles to love one another.
Peter does the same, though not so extensively, in 1Peter.
1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Peter does the same, though not so extensively, in 1Peter.
1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
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So what was their agreement to separate their ministries all about? (The one in Galatians 2:9).
glorydaz
Well-known member
The question isn't about who heard, but to whom they were sent.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Which is consistent with John being written after Peter had already died, and he died in like AD 66.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I think it can be read either way.
Derf
Well-known member
We started the book of James today. The greeting you cite is fairly strong for your view. But here's a twist to consider. James says his audience are living under "the law of liberty":
James 1:25 (KJV) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
And:
James 2:12 (KJV)
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Paul spoke of such liberty:
1 Corinthians 8:9 (KJV)
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Galatians 2:4 (KJV)
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Galatians 5:13 (KJV)
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
And Peter:
1 Peter 2:16 (KJV)
As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Both James and Peter were obviously making reference to the difference between the law of Moses vs this "law of liberty".
So James may be only writing to Jews, but they were definitely Jews that were exposed to Paul's teaching of grace.
Thank you for conceding the point.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:27-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:27-28&version=NKJV
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:10-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:10-11&version=NKJV
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek.
In the New Covenant, PRIOR to the Body of Christ, and those who were saved by it did not switch groups, and would probably still be alive when James wrote his letters, would still be participants of the New Covenant, there ARE Jews, and Proselytes.
Again, James was writing to "the twelve tribes."
Clearly not the Body of Christ, because of what Paul said, which I quoted above. Just because there are similarities doesn't make them the same.
Also, I recommend listening to Bob's Bible Study on James:
James and Jude MP3-CD or MP3 Download
science, philosophy, theology, morality, criminal justice, the Bible, apologetics
store.kgov.com
Derf
Well-known member
Do you think there was a “law of liberty” the Jews would have been following? Can you describe what that would mean for them?Thank you for conceding the point.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:27-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:27-28&version=NKJV
and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:10-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:10-11&version=NKJV
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek.
In the New Covenant, PRIOR to the Body of Christ, and those who were saved by it did not switch groups, and would probably still be alive when James wrote his letters, would still be participants of the New Covenant, there ARE Jews, and Proselytes.
Again, James was writing to "the twelve tribes."
Clearly not the Body of Christ, because of what Paul said, which I quoted above. Just because there are similarities doesn't make them the same.
Also, I recommend listening to Bob's Bible Study on James:
James and Jude MP3-CD or MP3 Download
science, philosophy, theology, morality, criminal justice, the Bible, apologetics
I wasn’t conceding the point yet, and perhaps I wasn’t quite clear in the partial sentence you quoted. I’ll try again.
So James may be only writing to Jews, but if so, they were definitely Jews that were exposed to Paul's teaching of grace.
If you look through the letter, nothing in the letter tells them to continue keeping the Mosaic law, as far as I can tell. So it could apply to Gentile converts as well, as long as we can reconcile the faith-with-works issue.
Do you feel like any part of the letter is useful to Christians today?
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
In fact there isn't the slightest hint of circumcision being taught by anybody in the New Testament, with the exception of those who are characterized as troublemakers. Circumcision seems to represent the Old Testament or Old Covenant.
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This series might also help: https://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/peter-james-and-john-were-not-talking-to-youAlso, I recommend listening to Bob's Bible Study on James:
James and Jude MP3-CD or MP3 Download
science, philosophy, theology, morality, criminal justice, the Bible, apologetics
I think you're conflating "law of liberty" with liberty.
What you said inherently conceded the point.
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile).
James was writing to the TWELVE TRIBES, ipso facto they are not part of the Body of Christ.
It doesn't matter. Again, they were partakers of the New Covenant. Paul's gospel is not the New Covenant, therefore even though they, like we can learn from their covenant, but not be partakers, can learn from Paul's gospel.
Because it was written years after Paul's conversion, after he had conveyed his gospel to them.
All scripture is profitable. Why do you think I don't believe that?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course, there is this... so, I'm not convinced it's speaking of the freedom from the bondage of the law as Paul meant it.
Jeremiah 34:15
And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name:
or more likely this
Psalm 119:44-46 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
Derf
Well-known member
I don't have a problem with God's law setting us at liberty, either. I'm saying they are compatible concepts, and therefore don't need to be differentiated as distinct gospels.
glorydaz
Well-known member
They are distinct gospels.
When Jesus returns and sits on David's throne, the people will be under the law, but it will not be bondage because they will love the law, and seek it's precepts in the very presence of the Lord.
Psalm 119:44-46 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
In Paul's gospel of Grace, we are freed from the law...no longer under it's bondage.