ECT Which understanding lends itself to your theology?

[TFTn5280]

"For" connotes a static condition where "To" shows action, i.e., "kinetic" "If you have love one to another". If you are using the KJV you find those two preps to be very important, significant for understanding. The same can be said for "In" and "of" (exam. Gal 2:20). Learn to recognize them and be enriched.

Thank you very much, I will.

 

[Cross Reference]

Thank you very much, I will.

Thank you. I see the auto scripture read uses the NKJV. Never assume I mean any other version in this observation aside from the KJV.

 

[Cross Reference]

Originally Posted by TFTn5280
I wrote:
Then why does the Holy Spirit convict? What is the need for it?

In sanctification the Holy Spirit convicts us that we become aware of our need, then sends us the ability to prevail, the whole time Christ is interceding on our behalf

But that is not what you wrote to which I replied.

But he that believes in Christ [lifestyle here] shall never die. So why the emphasis placed upon physical death?" (Jn 11:26)

Because physical death would be there to prevent us from never dying were it not for the resurrection that is in Christ Jesus. It is not enough to be forgiven, e.g.; we must still be born again in the resurrection of Christ

No. Here is the first instance of anyone ever being born again and in this instance Jesus administering it personally after having been WITH them for over three years, dying on the cross and resurrecting to make effective the new birth from above:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22 (KJV) The Holy Spirit Life of Christ was now IN them per Jn14:17: "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".

I wrote:
But you are making it all to be relating to mans salvation and resurrection. What does this say to you with regards to what God has accomplished for Himself by the Atonement:

"And this is eternal life, that they might [now] know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3

This speaks to the whole end for which we were created, that we be adopted as sons and daughters, that we know God the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

May I suggest that it is the beginning and the end of the Christian experience while on Earth? So what is in it for God when the process is complete __the Agape road journey Home?

Question: If Jesus steps into every facet of our lives to lead us, why the need to pursue God __ and Jesus, to know them?

see above

I did . . .

Thanks

 

[TFTn5280]

Originally Posted by TFTn5280
But he that believes in Christ [lifestyle here] shall never die. So why the emphasis placed upon physical death?" (Jn 11:26)



No. Here is the first instance of anyone ever being born again and in this instance Jesus administering it personally after having been WITH them for over three years, dying on the cross and resurrecting to make effective the new birth from above:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22 (KJV) The Holy Spirit Life of Christ was now IN them per Jn14:17: "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you".



Thanks

May I suggest that you allow me to employ this language for awhile before drawing any definite conclusions? I know it is new to you and you are attempting to connect it to things of meaning from within your thought paradigms -- that is really the only thing that any of us can do, but as the language becomes more familiar the meaning which I intend to convey will begin to break through in new paradigms. That is when you will be able to fairly evaluate the things I say.

Thanks, have a good day.

 

[Word based mystic]

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

John 3:5 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

If a child dies in the womb that child will not see or enter the kingdom of God???
Of course not. That Child was known by God in the womb.

Jesus was discussing the river of life that the Holy Spirit puts within a person upon being born again.

The Holy Spirit Births within us upon being born again our spirit. This is the new creation in Christ.

Before Christ our body could not contain the Holy Spirit because our spirit was not born again. After being born again the Holy spirit can reside in this earthly temple due to the new spirit that God birthed within us.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."

Adams spiritually died when he ate the apple. Man could not see God face to face after that nor could he house the Spirit of God, lest he be destroyed. God requires spirit substance of His own birthing to properly commune with man.

God is an all consuming fire. And in encountering him anything less than spiritual substance birthed by him will be burned up.

 

[Sheila B]

May I make a small observation here? We need to be careful about using Hebrew poetry to set our understanding of doctrine. The Hebrew writers employed a broad range of literary devices in their poetic language. Here I would like to suggest that David is using embellishment to communicate his sorrow and guilt before the Lord.

Please look with me at Job 31.18 for a less volatile example of embellishment in Hebrew poetry: "(But from my youth I reared him as a father, And from my mother's womb I guided the widow);" Job was not surely attempting to convey that he had actually cared for the widow from birth. Would we make a doctrine stating he was? Surely not. Well neither should we make a doctrine of David's words. He is simply embellishing sorrow. “[T]he son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Eze 18.20)



.

Thank you, I agree. There are enough NT verses to point to baptismal regeneration and its importance in entering the kingdom.

Jesus indeed was baptized for humanity's benefit. In addition to this, I see that He sanctified the waters at the same time.
What had been only a hope (mikvah) of cleansing outwardly, became a mystery/sacrament that cleanses interiorly also. A renewing of the mind. Made new. The ability to discern good from evil: a clean conscience.

 

[Sheila B]

Two doctrines hang in the balance: One of Calvin and one lending itself to the understanding of freewill.

To be continued __ <for sure> . .

Great post. I am glad because I usually avoid baptism threads! Glad to be back on track.

opcorn:

looking forward to hearing more...

 

[Cross Reference]

J

ohn 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

John 3:5 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

If a child dies in the womb that child will not see or enter the kingdom of God???
Of course not. That Child was known by God in the womb.

Jesus was discussing the river of life that the Holy Spirit puts within a person upon being born again.

The Holy Spirit Births within us upon being born again our spirit. This is the new creation in Christ.

Before Christ our body could not contain the Holy Spirit because our spirit was not born again. After being born again the Holy spirit can reside in this earthly temple due to the new spirit that God birthed within us.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."

Adams spiritually died when he ate the apple. Man could not see God face to face after that nor could he house the Spirit of God, lest he be destroyed. God requires spirit substance of His own birthing to properly commune with man.

God is an all consuming fire. And in encountering him anything less than spiritual substance birthed by him will be burned up.

Though I might word a little differently, I believe I can receive most all of that as the truth from the scriptures.

This I would take as being the "handshake" provided for by the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ. Per John 20:22.

 

[Word based mystic]

cross reference. I am new to sites such as this. How do I know if someone replied or continues on a thread I have posted?? do i get an email or do I just have to go to last page of thread to check every so often????

 

[Cross Reference]

cross reference. I am new to sites such as this. How do I know if someone replied or continues on a thread I have posted?? do i get an email or do I just have to go to last page of thread to check every so often????

Hi Word :wave: and welcome to the forum of mass thinking :duh: .. We all welcome your contribution with the hope of something anointed may radiate from your words! . . . .

You will know if someone replies by your reviewing the thread in which you posted something. There is no other way that I know of. Hope you enjoy your stay. Now pray and :carryon: . . . . . . Rest easy. You will be find . . .

 

[TFTn5280]

Thank you, I agree. There are enough NT verses to point to baptismal regeneration and its importance in entering the kingdom.

Jesus indeed was baptized for humanity's benefit. In addition to this, I see that He sanctified the waters at the same time.
What had been only a hope (mikvah) of cleansing outwardly, became a mystery/sacrament that cleanses interiorly also. A renewing of the mind. Made new. The ability to discern good from evil: a clean conscience.

Believe it or not (this is going to floor you!), I don't even really have a problem with what you say. Heck, I don't even have a problem with your impassioned espousal of it, but I do hope you'll understand that it is only via Jesus' baptism for you that your baptism, any baptism, has any meaning or power or application at all. If it weren't for Jesus acting vicariously on your behalf and actually rightly applying this and all the themes we see in Scripture, you would be screwed (if not here then somewhere) because you would be absolutely 100% responsible for not only correctly interpreting but then doing everything perfectly as GOD intends it to be understood and applied. I've got to think that somewhere in your theological understanding of everything you see in Scripture there may be some uncertainty somewhere. No? Well in that uncertainty (or flat out misinterpretation/application) Jesus steps in and gets it right on your behalf. For if he didn't, you would be dead in the gap of that uncertainty.

Cheers

 

[Cross Reference]

Thank you, I agree. There are enough NT verses to point to baptismal regeneration and its importance in entering the kingdom.

Jesus indeed was baptized for humanity's benefit. In addition to this, I see that He sanctified the waters at the same time.
What had been only a hope (mikvah) of cleansing outwardly, became a mystery/sacrament that cleanses interiorly also. A renewing of the mind. Made new. The ability to discern good from evil: a clean conscience.

This I saw by insight to be correct and not unlike what needs to be understood re the partaking of the Bread and Wine . . . unworthily, a long time ago.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Born of your mother when the water breaks, and then born from grave as Ezekiel told. You are master of Israel and you know not these things?

Indeed, Nick M , The Great.

Womb/Tomb.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I doubt that Nicodemus would have to be born of water of his mother again.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The LORD explains "born of water".

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Cannot?? Will not is what I am saying. Why? How can they be condemned if they never heard/here of Jesus? What God be unjust to those who place their trust in Him Who, to them, has no name?

Then better the church never present the good news to the heathen in the jungles and just let these so-called ignorant folk go on to their apparently guaranteed glory. Odd that is, no? :AMR1:

Question: What did Jesus tell the disciple-missionaries to do? And did not Paul example these instructions by his Mars Hill discourse? Lets try to not leave anything out that might help us understand.

Indeed, let's not, by making sure we actually understand the topic:

http://opc.org/os.html?issue_id=46

Just sayin'.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I was intending to begin to explain this today and you have now pressed me to do so, so I feel I must.

Two doctrines hang in the balance: One of Calvin and one lending itself to the understanding of freewill.

The purpose is to first point up the fact man was not born reprobate and in need of a gift of faith that could never be administered by God anyway because reprobation is a decree of God that can never be reversed. Besides that, God would never arbitrarily do so. So the opposite must be true. Man was/is born with a measure of faith for him to believe and seek God. (cf Gen 4:26 and Rom 1:28-32).

There are those now in the throes of eternal punishment. They were born. They are now dead. Obviously, they were born headed to perdition for if they were not, they would not be now in Hell.

Now you can quibble, claiming, well, these folk could have been otherwise if only they were smarter, wiser, etc., than others just like yourself. All of which overlooks the teachings from Scripture that all are born in the sin of Adam and therefore sin because they are sinners, hence deserving nothing but God's justice and not God's mercy. Nevertheess, God does inform us He will have mercy upon those of His own choosing, not upon those upon who we think in the throes of our finitude and noetic effects of sin, He should be merciful towards.

The plain facts are that all who call upon the Lord will be saved. This is why the gospel is commanded to be offered indiscriminately to all, such that the workings of the plan of God might be fulfilled through such secondary contingencies. On the other hand, your discussion is one that specifically attempts to needlessly peek behind the curtain (Deut. 29:29) and call God into the Dock to give an account of Himself, just as Job's friends tried to do. What answer did Job and his friends receive? That was a rhetorical question of course.

As to the matter of free will, it is a well-worn topic with me, so if you wish to discuss it, I refer you to my discussions in the following two threads that you are welcome to interact with substantively:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41620
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63586

Free will is simply choosing according to your greatest inclinations at the moment you so choose.

The fact that these folks in Hell are where they are points to their inclinations does it not? To claim otherwise is an impossibility of logic for things cannot be both true and false in the same sense and in the same way.

Your issue seems to be that man's inclinations can be contrary to their inclinations. After all, you claim those in Hell could have escaped their punishment if they only were wiser, smarter, and so forth. Indeed, you must have been wiser and smarter than your neighbor who hates God and is now on his way towards perdition. Else, how do you answer the child who asks, "Why are you going to heaven and Bob across the street is not?" Really, what is your plain answer that will satisfy the obvious "Yes, but..." questions to ensue in your response? As the links to my content above will show, I believe my answers are the only answers that give proper due to God's sovereignty, glory, and man's responsibility.

AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

There are those now in the throes of eternal punishment. They were born. They are now dead. Obviously, they were born headed to perdition for if they were not, they would not be now in Hell.AMR

I am sorry but, I can't get beyond this unfounded declaration. I must ask the question: Why do you believe they were "obviously" born for hell? How do you know that and why would a Just God permit that without prior knowledge of their propensity to not retain the knowledge of Him in their life? He cannot violate Himself! In other words, these folk had exhausted their choice for good to embrace evil and then passed from the scene __ all this registered in the foreknowledge of God..

I would have hoped you would have first addressed the below, including the scripture referrences:

"The purpose is to first point up the fact man was not born reprobate and in need of a gift of faith that could never be administered by God anyway because reprobation is a decree of God that can never be reversed. Besides that, God would never arbitrarily do so. So the opposite must be true. Man was/is born with a measure of faith for him to believe and seek God. (cf Gen 4:26 and Rom 1:28-32)."

Kindly define/interpret what is going on in those two passages. Thank you.

 

[Cross Reference]

T

hen better the church never present the good news to the heathen in the jungles and just let these so-called ignorant folk go on to their apparently guaranteed glory. Odd that is, no? :AMR1:

Heathen?? Only because the Christian has set that standard based upon their ignorance of Jesus Christ. Faith is God is the issue here should they never learn if Him before death. I repeat, Missionaries are not told by the Lord to go into all the world and get people saved. Missionaries can't save anyone. They are simply told to make disciples. Question: How does one make a disciple out of an atheist? Can't be done. The rest the missionary can only pray they have ears to hear the gospel; to know Jesus Christ is the God they have been longing for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
Question: What did Jesus tell the disciple-missionaries to do? And did not Paul example these instructions by his Mars Hill discourse? Lets try to not leave anything out that might help us understand.

Indeed, let's not, by making sure we actually understand the topic:

http://opc.org/os.html?issue_id=46

Just sayin'.

AMR

Trust me. I well understand the topic. How 'bout addressing my concerns you seem to want to ignore in favor of promoting your own argue. I want to know what you believe is wrong with mine in light of a few easily understood scriptures that say I am not. I fail to understand that of anyone in their thinking through of spiritual issues in an objective way. Certainly you can't believe you have arrived?

 

[andyc]

Your issue seems to be that man's inclinations can be contrary to their inclinations. After all, you claim those in Hell could have escaped their punishment if they only were wiser, smarter, and so forth. Indeed, you must have been wiser and smarter than your neighbor who hates God and is now on his way towards perdition. Else, how do you answer the child who asks, "Why are you going to heaven and Bob across the street is not?" Really, what is your plain answer that will satisfy the obvious "Yes, but..." questions to ensue in your response? As the links to my content above will show, I believe my answers are the only answers that give proper due to God's sovereignty, glory, and man's responsibility.

AMR

It's a little more involved to suggest that it's either man's will or God's sovereignty, and therefore opt for God's sovereignty in an attempt to empty one's self from any kind of credit for believing.
We are all born into a world blinded and under the delusion of the devil. And then factor in our own ignorance and pride, we would be completely unable to find the light of our own ability. As Paul says,having no hope, and without God in the world. We were all born with no hope, and without God in the world. But at some point, Christ is revealed, and we are confronted with the gospel. The attraction of the world is still there, and our pride is still there, but if there is a conviction in our heart, will we harden our heart?
The word that is sown can be stolen by the devil, because the pull of the world is still strong, not because God has rejected the soul.

There was a time when I believed that Jesus died for me, but I wasn't born again. Why wasn't I born again when I believed the gospel?
I can look back and point to the fact that true repentance is to be confronted with our own pride preventing us from letting go of our own self will, and yielding to the word of God.
The choice to reach out for forgiveness, or harden our heart, is the battle within. Even after we're saved, there is a struggle within to either yield to faith or crumble with fear. This is why the Hebrew writer tells us to be diligent to enter God's rest. This is a human effort to fight thoughts and feelings of doubt and fear in response to the work of God according to his word.

1 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now this i extremely significant, because there is the possibility for those who are told to enter his rest to disobey, even when having the thoughts and intents of the heart totally exposed to the light. The outcome of this simply cannot be laid at the feet of God's sovereignty. There is obviously more to it than this. Our own experience in the Christian walk tells us that when a crisis strikes we can either cling to faith in order to enter rest, which takes effort, or crumble into despair.
Will we yield to the word, or harden our heart?

 

[Cross Reference]

There are those now in the throes of eternal punishment. They were born. They are now dead. Obviously, they were born headed to perdition for if they were not, they would not be now in Hell.

Now you can quibble, claiming, well, these folk could have been otherwise if only they were smarter, wiser, etc., than others just like yourself. All of which overlooks the teachings from Scripture that all are born in the sin of Adam and therefore sin because they are sinners, hence deserving nothing but God's justice and not God's mercy. Nevertheess, God does inform us He will have mercy upon those of His own choosing, not upon those upon who we think in the throes of our finitude and noetic effects of sin, He should be merciful towards.

The plain facts are that all who call upon the Lord will be saved. This is why the gospel is commanded to be offered indiscriminately to all, such that the workings of the plan of God might be fulfilled through such secondary contingencies. On the other hand, your discussion is one that specifically attempts to needlessly peek behind the curtain (Deut. 29:29) and call God into the Dock to give an account of Himself, just as Job's friends tried to do. What answer did Job and his friends receive? That was a rhetorical question of course.

As to the matter of free will, it is a well-worn topic with me, so if you wish to discuss it, I refer you to my discussions in the following two threads that you are welcome to interact with substantively:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41620
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63586

Free will is simply choosing according to your greatest inclinations at the moment you so choose.

The fact that these folks in Hell are where they are points to their inclinations does it not? To claim otherwise is an impossibility of logic for things cannot be both true and false in the same sense and in the same way.

Your issue seems to be that man's inclinations can be contrary to their inclinations. After all, you claim those in Hell could have escaped their punishment if they only were wiser, smarter, and so forth. Indeed, you must have been wiser and smarter than your neighbor who hates God and is now on his way towards perdition. Else, how do you answer the child who asks, "Why are you going to heaven and Bob across the street is not?" Really, what is your plain answer that will satisfy the obvious "Yes, but..." questions to ensue in your response? As the links to my content above will show, I believe my answers are the only answers that give proper due to God's sovereignty, glory, and man's responsibility.

AMR

Ordinarily I am always open for a sound discussion, however, all that in those two threads, to my way of thinking, is far too convoluted to hope to receive anything from them. After reading a short positional argument, I couldn't figure out who was for it or who was against it __ whatever the question was. Thanks anyway. I'll pass. Learning to know God is not that complicated. All one has to be is as a child.