Cross Reference
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OMT = one more thing.
ECT Which understanding lends itself to your theology?
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OMT = one more thing.
Cross Reference
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Due to the penalty of sin by Adam's transgression
How "bout re-reading the op as a refresher for what this discussion is supposed to be all about.
TFTn5280
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I doubt that Nicodemus would have to be born of water of his mother again.
Jesus was saying the same thing which He stated elsewhere and throughout the book of Acts.
Baptism in water is not some formula which men decide to do. It is what the Lord asks for through His saints to those seeking forgiveness and reconciliation to God.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
LA
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You will find discussions get off track very easily. My reason for this OP is very serious business because it is foundational to false doctrine the church baths in.
Ask Mr. Religion
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The audience, Jews, understood the mode of expression to "water" here, and of course Nicodemus understood the sense of the psalmist and the prophets in the Old Testament, e.g.,
"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
"Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from you."
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you."
There is no direct sense of the baptism sacrament here as in the sign and the thing signified lying behind baptism in the church.
Rather the phrase refers to what the Jews well understood by the expression, the purification of heart and renewal by the Spirit, of which "washing", "born of water" was familiar and figurative as expressions among the Jews. See also John 7:37-38; Titus 3:4-6.
See also here.
AMR
"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
"Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from you."
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you."
There is no direct sense of the baptism sacrament here as in the sign and the thing signified lying behind baptism in the church.
Rather the phrase refers to what the Jews well understood by the expression, the purification of heart and renewal by the Spirit, of which "washing", "born of water" was familiar and figurative as expressions among the Jews. See also John 7:37-38; Titus 3:4-6.
See also here.
AMR
Sheila B
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Click on "User CP" upper left. Instructions are in the rep
Sheila B
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the mikvahs were a shadow and type. The baptism of the Church fulfills the reality. The former washes the flesh clean, the new bath of regeneration brings a clean conscience. i.e., a clean interior!
I read it.
Jesus did not say "you must be born of the Spirit"
He said Nicodemus had to be born of water and of the Spirit.
Jesus answer of "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" was in regard to Nicodemus suggesting he has to enter his mothers womb again.
LA
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But did he understand any of it to be a birthing or even a type of birthing since he asked the question re the impossibility of his re-entering his mother's womb? Jesus didn't infer by His wording allude to any kind of OT "washings" even being a type of the new birth needed for what He was soon to accomplish. What He was implying is that: 'no one can even begin to receive into himself Spiritual [from above] understanding unless he has a new innocent life in which to not only hear but then to enter the process of understanding heavenly matters. "Unless a man become as a little child", retraining to learn the ways of his father is impossible. ______ So much for seminaries, commentaries and self-help books that lead stray by means of 'common sense'.
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Jesus was born of the water. Don't you believe He was also born of the Spirit?
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You believe infant baptism is necessary for slvation. Why, since they are innocent and therefore, blameless, no guilty conscience and without law?
Ask Mr. Religion
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Tying baptism to faith would impose numerous contradictions in the Scriptures. For example, in John 6:66 we find many disciples turning away from Christ and there is no doubt they had been baptized in His name. Simon Magus was baptized, but was not regenerated.
The use of ‘water’ in John 3:3-5 was figurative and metaphorical, just as in Eze. 36:25, or as in John 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26, where the Word of God is the metaphorical object. There are even some extra-biblical sources identifying Nicodemus as Nicodemon ben Gorion, a rich man who was also an officer in the temple who took care to provide water for the feasts. Assuming this to be the case, Christ’s use of ‘water’ would strengthen the metaphor’s applicability to Nicodemus.
In Mark 16:16, it seems clear that faith precedes baptism: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved”. Moreover, the literal rendering is actually: “the one who believed and was baptized”.
In Acts 2:38, if we accept the view that baptism is a necessary condition for remission of sins we run into numerous contradictions in Scripture teaching that forgiveness of sins is based on faith alone: John 3:16, John 3:36; Rom. 4:1-17; Rom. 11:6; Gal. 3:8-9; Eph. 2:8-9. Also, Peter, the same speaker, later promised forgiveness of sins on the basis of faith alone: Acts 5:31; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:38; Acts 26:18.
In Galatians 3:27, we need to understand that Paul has been expounding on the doctrine of justification. Paul’s vindication of the doctrine of justification by faith reached a climax in verses 26-29 as he contrasted the position of a justified sinner with what he had been under the Law.
The Galatians were no longer under a Jewish slave-guardian, for they had become adult sons through faith. Paul’s exalted position of “sons of God” (v.26) is explained in Gal. 3:27 to involve a living union with Christ brought about by being baptized into Christ. This is the baptism of (or in) the Holy Spirit, which according to Paul (1 Cor. 12:12-13), joins all believers to Christ and unites them within the church, Christ’s body. This union with Christ means being clothed with Christ. In Roman society when a young person came of age he was given a special toga which admitted him to the full rights of the family and state and indicated he was a grown-up son. So the Galatian believers had laid aside the old garments of the Law and had put on Christ’s robe of righteousness which grants full acceptance before God.
AMR
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I wrote:
AMR's reply:

No doubt? How so? Did JTB baptize in His name that Jesus would suddenly change how John baptized? Who knew Jesus to be God, even made flesh, at that point in time. Not even the 12 knew that w-exception of Peter and He not-to-soon became unsure in it all.
Of course. Who would do something without first having faith for the outcome? But this is speaking purely of salvation and NOT the new birth which is that which can only open revelation truth TO learning the ways of God. The written cannot do that. Doctrine cannot do that. One must be born again in a very literal way __ by faith, that one might to enter into a new way of life built entirely upon a totally new foundation of redemption with new covenantal restrictions.
Again, this about being born again __ not salvation. Lets make the distinction now by using Nicodemus as our example. Through no fault of his own, had Nicodemus never heard of Jesus Christ, would he have gone to hell and suffered with the wicked?
In Galatians 3:27, we need to understand that Paul has been expounding on the doctrine of justification. Paul’s vindication of the doctrine of justification by faith reached a climax in verses 26-29 as he contrasted the position of a justified sinner with what he had been under the Law.
The Galatians were no longer under a Jewish slave-guardian, for they had become adult sons through faith. Paul’s exalted position of “sons of God” (v.26) is explained in Gal. 3:27 to involve a living union with Christ brought about by being baptized into Christ. This is the baptism of (or in) the Holy Spirit, which according to Paul (1 Cor. 12:12-13), joins all believers to Christ and unites them within the church, Christ’s body. This union with Christ means being clothed with Christ. In Roman society when a young person came of age he was given a special toga which admitted him to the full rights of the family and state and indicated he was a grown-up son. So the Galatian believers had laid aside the old garments of the Law and had put on Christ’s robe of righteousness which grants full acceptance before God.[/quote]
Again, this is about being born again __ not salvation. Lets make the distinction by using Nicodemus as our example. Through no fault of his own, had Nicodemus never heard of Jesus Christ, would he have gone to hell and suffered with the wicked?
Thank you AMR for taking the time for this, given your schedule. I especially trust and pray something might be gained from it all and for His Kingdom. .
AMR's reply:

No doubt? How so? Did JTB baptize in His name that Jesus would suddenly change how John baptized? Who knew Jesus to be God, even made flesh, at that point in time. Not even the 12 knew that w-exception of Peter and He not-to-soon became unsure in it all.
Clean but, born again? Can’t be. OMT, are we to suppose that being “born of the Spirit , or, born from above, should also be taken to be metaphorical?
Of course. Who would do something without first having faith for the outcome? But this is speaking purely of salvation and NOT the new birth which is that which can only open revelation truth TO learning the ways of God. The written cannot do that. Doctrine cannot do that. One must be born again in a very literal way __ by faith, that one might to enter into a new way of life built entirely upon a totally new foundation of redemption with new covenantal restrictions.
Again, this about being born again __ not salvation. Lets make the distinction now by using Nicodemus as our example. Through no fault of his own, had Nicodemus never heard of Jesus Christ, would he have gone to hell and suffered with the wicked?
In Galatians 3:27, we need to understand that Paul has been expounding on the doctrine of justification. Paul’s vindication of the doctrine of justification by faith reached a climax in verses 26-29 as he contrasted the position of a justified sinner with what he had been under the Law.
The Galatians were no longer under a Jewish slave-guardian, for they had become adult sons through faith. Paul’s exalted position of “sons of God” (v.26) is explained in Gal. 3:27 to involve a living union with Christ brought about by being baptized into Christ. This is the baptism of (or in) the Holy Spirit, which according to Paul (1 Cor. 12:12-13), joins all believers to Christ and unites them within the church, Christ’s body. This union with Christ means being clothed with Christ. In Roman society when a young person came of age he was given a special toga which admitted him to the full rights of the family and state and indicated he was a grown-up son. So the Galatian believers had laid aside the old garments of the Law and had put on Christ’s robe of righteousness which grants full acceptance before God.[/quote]
Again, this is about being born again __ not salvation. Lets make the distinction by using Nicodemus as our example. Through no fault of his own, had Nicodemus never heard of Jesus Christ, would he have gone to hell and suffered with the wicked?
Thank you AMR for taking the time for this, given your schedule. I especially trust and pray something might be gained from it all and for His Kingdom. .
Sheila B
Member
Every human being is born into the kingdom of this present age of darkness. Baptism transfers the soul into the kingdom of God's light. If this is a belief, why would parents wait?
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Since babies are with no need for it and nothing is accomplished by it, why press for infant baptism? BTW, where did you read that? What book or author?
Sheila B
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When Jesus came out of the water the Spirit appeared visibly like a dove and the Voice of God spoke! NOT figurative and metaphorical, but the transformation of the mikvah into the power of "water and Spirit" which every believer is promised t receive.
That is an argument from silence.
After the witness of Pentecost, Saul/Paul, Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch and others... it would be endlessly redundant.
Sheila B
Member
The Hebrew interpretation of the Fall of man in Genesis 3 was accepted wholeheartedly by the Church.
What are we saved from, if we are not born into sin?