oatmeal
Well-known member
Well said
WHICH CHURCH WAS HEBREWS WRITTEN TO?
- Thread starter DougE
- Start date
Well said
I do not agree with this "...this letter was not written to a specific church but to Jewish Christians, thus the name Hebrews. The author wanted the readers to see the superiority of Christ over all the Old Testament sacrificial laws and how the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice made all other sacrifices unnecessary."
The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who believed on the name of Jesus and believed the gospel of the kingdom. These Jew were not members of the body of Christ. These Jews had to remain steadfast and were under the new covenant made with Israel. The sacrifices will continue in the millennial kingdom according to Ezekiel 40-48
oatmeal
Well-known member
All Christians whether formerly Judean or Gentile are members in particular in the body of Christ. Place in their roles as God chose to do so.
I Corinthians 12:13,18
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
Our personal preferences of who gets to be in the body of Christ are powerless.
It is God that set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him, whether formerly Jewish or Gentile
Part of receiving the gift of salvation is being given foredained works to do.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
That work involves carrying out the duties of being members in particular in the body of Christ.
God is not a respecter of persons but of your believing.
Those that believe receive, not those who have religious or secular authority.
The body of Christ is a mystery hid until revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9). The saints before Paul are in Christ, but not in the body of Christ (Romans 16:7).
oatmeal
Well-known member
Doug,
Could you point out where the word "first" appears in Ephesians 3:1-9? As that same passage makes clear the mystery was revealed to apostles and prophets as well. Plural, not singular.
Who else was the mystery revealed to? Other apostles and prophets besides Paul.
As Farr as your reference to Romans, are you suggesting that a person who is in Christ is not in Christ?
God's Truth
New member
Being in the body of Christ IS BEING IN CHRIST.
Shasta
Well-known member
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Shasta
Well-known member
The body of Christ is just a metaphor for those individuals who are joined to Christ [the Head] and gather together in His name. Paul refers to us as "the saints"God's temple" and the citizenry of heaven ( Philippians 3:20) and the author of Hebrews as the "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23) Universally and locally believers are the Church, the "ecclesia," which is the assembly of those "called out" of the world. These descriptors all refer to the same group. The only thing that USED TO BE "hidden" (to most people) was the fact that Jews and Gentiles would be united through the death and Resurrection into one New Covenant.
God's Truth
New member
Thank you, Shasta, and so good to see you.
Right Divider
Body part
You can only find this metaphor in Paul's epistles. The twelve never refer to Christ that way. Christ is their King. The King of Israel.
Not rightly dividing is the root of your confusion.
The new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant: God and Israel.
God's Truth
New member
I do want to say that being in the body of Christ and being the temple of Christ are not metaphors, as you say, it is reality for that which is spiritual.
God's Truth
New member
The Gentiles did not come into the first covenant and that is why they were enemies of God and without Him in the world.
Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Paul says he is the minister of the New Covenant, and he preached for the Gentiles to come into the Covenant.
Here Paul tells when Jesus made that covenant:
1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
Here Paul tells how Jesus gave the covenant that was promised a long time ago when God said He would write the new law on our hearts:
2 Corinthians 3:3 It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Paul is explaining that HE COULD NOT CHANGE THE COVENANT, which further proves Paul taught exactly what Jesus taught when he walked the earth:
Galatians 3:15 Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended.
When Jesus walked the earth, while he was teaching the words of the New Covenant of eternal life with God, he said if we don't believe and obey him then we don't have life.
His words are for everyone and are always and forever true.
If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51.
This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.
Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.
When we believe in Jesus’ shed blood, we come into the blood covenant with God, Mark 14:24. We believe and this believing is as drinking his blood.
When we come to Jesus and then believe, it is as drinking his blood. When we obey, it is as eating his flesh. After we eat his flesh and drink his blood, Jesus gives us water to drink that means Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit, John 4:10; 14; John 7:38; 39.
When become heirs after doing what Jesus says to do to be an heir, and then when we are in the covenant, we receive what heirs receive.
The covenant is Jesus' Last Will and Testament. It is final. No such thing as Paul coming and changing any of it.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Right Divider
Body part
The gentiles were not offered the first covenant. God specifically chose the nation of Israel to be His people.
Paul uses a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language. Paul says that he is a minister of the new covenant IN THE SPIRIT and NOT THE LETTER. The LETTER of the new covenant is that is new to Israel (old first with them and then new with them).
This mashing verse together to force it to agree with your story is no replacement for actually understanding what it really means.
You do not understand what Paul is talking about as per usual.
Jesus taught Israel to follow the law. Matthew 23:1-3, Matthew 28:20
Shasta
Well-known member
A. The NT authors use different metaphors and analogies to describe the assembly of believers. Let us first look at how Paul used the term "Body of Christ" in 1 Corinthians 12:
12 For even as the body is ONE and yet has many MEMBERS, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ
(1 Corinthians 12:12)
Here Paul introduces his analogy of the human body. Like a human body, the Church is not monolithic. Instead, its healthy functioning depends on the proper working of many parts (individuals). The "members" are joined into one Body by partaking of the Holy Spirit.
13 For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13)
JEWS along with GENTILES are part of this ONE BODY. In fact, ANYONE who has repented of their sins and has believed in Jesus are made partakers of the Spirit and are part of the BODY OF CHRIST regardless of their race, ethnicity or economic status. Paul apparently was the one who first compared believers to a human body but it was just an ANALOGY.
B. As for the Gentiles who were part of the body, the Messianic prophecy of redemption and the forgiveness of sin was given to them as well as to the Jews.
6 He [God] says, “It is not enough for you to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make you a light for the nations [i.e., Gentiles], that you may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6)
The prophet Simeon also knew of the "LIGHT coming to the gentiles" as did Peter and James:
During the Jerusalem council James said: “Brethren, listen to me. 14 “Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME. 15 “With this the words of the PROPHETS AGREE, just as it is written...
17 SO THAT THE MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’
(Acts 15:14-17)
C. What difference does it make if "those called by His name" are compared to a HUMAN BODY or to THE TEMPLE? With respect to being the Temple, Paul said that the middle veil separating Jews from Gentiles was torn down resulting in both becoming ONE STRUCTURE (Ephesians 2:20-22)?
D.
So, according to your method of "rightly dividing," the word of God the new covenant is only for Jews, not Gentiles. Well, let us look at the Eucharist which exemplified the "New Covenant IN Christ's BLOOD" Were Gentile believers excluded from partaking of the covenant cup? No, Paul said:
"16 Is not the cup of blessing that WE bless a PARTICIPATION in the BLOOD OF CHRIST? And is not the bread that WE break a participation in the BODY of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we who are MANY ARE ONE BODY; for we all partake of the one loaf.…"
(1 Corinthians 10:16-17)
Since the recipients of the letter to Paul's letter to the Corinthians included both Jewish and Gentile believers, BOTH groups were partakers of the New Covenant in His blood. Gentiles who had previously been separated had been grafted into the same Vine with Israel.
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God's Truth
New member
Anyone could have come in the covenant.
The Gentiles didn’t because they wanted to sin.
Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
Here is more proof:
Anyone could become a Jew.
Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
Acts 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
Acts 6:5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
Acts 13:43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Esther 8:17 In every province and in every city to which the edict of the king came, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.
No metaphors are used. Didn’t you say Paul did not preach the new covenant to Jews and Gentiles?
No such thing that you say. Insults and denial is no defense for truth. I gave you words from God, you gave words from what?
I give words from God and you just deny and insult. Did you really think that is defense for truth?
Jesus taught the new law through him, but he told the disciples to do what the Pharisees make them do, because the temple was still standing.
Pretty strange for you to not get that Jesus preached a new covenant.
We have to obey what Jesus commands. How can anyone go against that?
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too bad about ya:baby:
Right Divider
Body part
Only the blind cannot see the difference between what Paul wrote and what the rest wrote.
I simply follow what the scripture says. Jeremiah quotes GOD Himself as saying that the new covenant is between Himself and Israel. The author of Hebrews confirms this by quoting Jeremiah.
Gentile believers were ALWAYS allowed to join with Israel. That does not make them Israel.
Paul says that there are NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ.
NEITHER is NOT the same as AND.
Right Divider
Body part
Telling lies does not help your "story".
There were many gentiles that joined with Israel. They "did not want to sin" and they are not "in the covenant".
Then they're not a gentile anymore... no gentiles in the covenant.
Clearly you have no understanding of figures of speech in the English language.
Paul did not "preach the new covenant" at all; Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God. Paul preached the cross.
Those of us in the body of Christ are saved by the gospel and not by any covenant. You should join us.
You give lots of Bible but always out of context to support your fairy story.
You are a Bible masher. If you don't like that, you need to change.
Jesus told them to follow the law of Moses.... PERIOD.
:french: Thanks for finally agreeing.
You have to obey the CORRECT set of Jesus' commands.
Do you obey Matthew 16:20?
You MASH things so badly that you cannot see the divisions that God put in the Bible.
God's Truth
New member
The scriptures don't lie.
Anyone could have come in the covenant.
The Gentiles didn’t because they wanted to sin.
Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
Here is more proof:
Anyone could become a Jew.
Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
Acts 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
Acts 6:5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
Acts 13:43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Esther 8:17 In every province and in every city to which the edict of the king came, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.
God's Truth
New member
Read the scripture more carefully, it says the Gentiles obeyed false gods and THAT is why they were not known by God and NOT in the covenant.
We have to be a slave to OBEDIENCE to God in order to belong to God.
We have to do what God says to do to belong to Him, or we do what the devil says and belong to him.
Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.