Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

If he has a body when he goes to be with the Lord and he is not naked then what kind of body will he have then?

Sorry. I didn't follow my own admonition to answer the questions.
There are only 2 types of bodies, and earthly one (corruptible) and a heavenly one (incorruptible). When He goes to be with the Lord, he will have a heavenly body. He's never naked, as far as I can tell.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are only 2 types of bodies, and earthly one (corruptible) and a heavenly one (incorruptible). When He goes to be with the Lord, he will have a heavenly body. He's never naked, as far as I can tell.

When a Christian will be with the Lord in heaven then his earthly body will be turning to dust. So he will not have on that body in heaven.

And when in heaven he will be waiting to be raised in a heavenly body and since he will be waiting for that body he will not be wearing that body.

That accounts for two bodies which he is not wearing in heaven. But you say that the saints are in heaven now and they are not naked but instead are wearing a body.

So tell us what kind of body he has on now in heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

A big question in determining what that sleep state entails is determining what part of us is the important part. If we say the body is the important part, then the ones who sleep would refer to the bodies that are dead. But since the bodies decay, it seems like the important part is the spirit--that's the part of us that is aware, and what we usually mean when we say someone is in heaven with Jesus immediately after he dies.

Is it the spirit of man or the soul of man that is aware?

 

[Derf]

That accounts for two bodies which he is not wearing in heaven. But you say that the saints are in heaven now and they are not naked but instead are wearing a body.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I didn't say anything that contradicts anything you said.

So, you agree that after a person dies, he will not be in the presence of the Lord until after the resurrection?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this.

So you have always said that when a Christian dies then he will be with the Lord in heaven without a body?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that he is currently at home in a tent (mortal body) but will be given a permanent building (immortal body) to be in.
In 2 Corinthians 5:6, Paul stated that while he is in his tent (mortal body), he is not in the permanent building (immortal body).
In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul stated that he is willing to leave his tent (mortal body) and move into his permanent building (immortal body).
In 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul states that the change from mortal body to immortal body will happen at the last trump (and by inference, it won't happen before the last trump).

When a Christian will be with the Lord in heaven then his earthly body will be turning to dust. So he will not have on that body in heaven.

And when in heaven he will be waiting to be raised in a heavenly body and since he will be waiting for that body he will not be wearing that body.

That accounts for two bodies which he is not wearing in heaven. But you say that the saints are in heaven now and they are not naked but instead are wearing a body.

So tell us what kind of body he has on now in heaven.

See, you are ignoring 2 Corinthians 5:1.
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 that he will either be in the earthly body or in the heavenly body.
You claim that a Christian will be in heaven without any body in opposition to what Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, you agree that after a person dies, he will not be in the presence of the Lord until after the resurrection?

I never said that. I said that when a Christian dies he will be with the Lord in heaven:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).

At the last trump the living saints will put on new glorious bodies when they meet the Lord Jesus in the air and those who are with Him now in heaven will be raised in those same kind of bodies.

 

[Derf]

Is it the spirit of man or the soul of man that is aware?

That's probably one of the things that keeps us from coming together on these issues--the definition of terms.

If the spirit is not the aware part of humans, then saying that we are in heaven with Jesus in spirit is meaningless, imo.

But if we say that the spirit is the aware part, then it would make some sense, except it would speak against the sleep verses. Does it make any sense to say a person is aware when asleep? I don't think so.

Paul said he wasn't sure if he was in the body or out of the body when caught up to heaven (2 Cor 12:2-3). Whatever "out of the body" means is I suppose what we are discussing here. It brings up an interesting point. Paul had experienced an out of body experience, but he didn't see it as favorable in 2 Cor 5:4

 

[Derf]

But you say that the saints are in heaven now and they are not naked but instead are wearing a body.

So you have always said that when a Christian dies then he will be with the Lord in heaven without a body?

No, neither of those. (You've presented a false dichotomy.)

What I have been saying is that for the believer, his awareness seems to end when he goes to sleep (dies). His awareness is renewed when he wakes up (is resurrected). From his point of view, there is no gap in awareness, so "absent from the body" means "present with the Lord". But in between death and resurrection is some unknown amount of time that the dead person is unaware of, thus it would seem that there's no gap in awareness, since he's not aware of his own unawareness.

Illustration:
Believer's point of view:
Death>Life (nothing in between)

God's point of view:
Death>.....................>Life (...=years in between)

Paul is speaking of the believer's point of view in 2 Cor 5.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I never said that. I said that when a Christian dies he will be with the Lord in heaven:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).

At the last trump the living saints will put on new glorious bodies when they meet the Lord Jesus in the air and those who are with Him now in heaven will be raised in those same kind of bodies.

You are contradicting yourself.
2 Corinthians 5:8 is speaking about leaving the earthly body and putting on the exact same "new glorious bodies" that Christians will raised in when they meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is speaking of the believer's point of view in 2 Cor 5.

I just can't imagine why Paul would allude to being "naked" in that chapter if there is no such thing as being without a body.

If Paul's words about being naked are not speaking of a Christian being without a body then they must have another meaning.

What is that meaning?

 

[genuineoriginal]

That's probably one of the things that keeps us from coming together on these issues--the definition of terms.

If the spirit is not the aware part of humans, then saying that we are in heaven with Jesus in spirit is meaningless, imo.

But if we say that the spirit is the aware part, then it would make some sense, except it would speak against the sleep verses. Does it make any sense to say a person is aware when asleep? I don't think so.

In Psychology there are the concepts of Id, Ego, and Superego.
When we try to match these to what the Bible says about the soul and spirit, it appears that the Ego is the soul, the Id is the spirit, and the Superego is the knowledge of good and evil.
The Ego/soul is the part that is the self.

Paul said he wasn't sure if he was in the body or out of the body when caught up to heaven (2 Cor 12:2-3). Whatever "out of the body" means is I suppose what we are discussing here. It brings up an interesting point. Paul had experienced an out of body experience, but he didn't see it as favorable in 2 Cor 5:4

Paul's "in the body" or "out of body" experience seems to be like what John experienced in Revelation when he was shown when he was "in the Spirit".

 

[genuineoriginal]

I just can't imagine why Paul would allude to being "naked" in that chapter if there is no such thing as being without a body.

If Paul's words about being naked are not speaking of a Christian being without a body then they must have another meaning.

What is that meaning?

Paul states that there is no time when he is naked/unclothed, but that he will either be in the mortal body or in the immortal body.
You keep wanting to add a time without any body, in contradiction to what Paul stated.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul states that there is no time when he is naked/unclothed, but that he will either be in the mortal body or in the immortal body.

I just can't imagine why Paul would allude to being "naked" if there is no such thing as being without a body.

If Paul's words about being naked are not speaking of a Christian being without a body then they must have another meaning.

What is that meaning?

You are contradicting yourself.
2 Corinthians 5:8 is speaking about leaving the earthly body and putting on the exact same "new glorious bodies" that Christians will raised in when they meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

You are right. I didn't see that.

 

[john w]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this.

Jerry is know to misquote TOL members-that is his MO.

 

[Derf]

In Psychology there are the concepts of Id, Ego, and Superego.
When we try to match these to what the Bible says about the soul and spirit, it appears that the Ego is the soul, the Id is the spirit, and the Superego is the knowledge of good and evil.
The Ego/soul is the part that is the self.

Thanks, but I'm not sure what to do with that information.

Paul's "in the body" or "out of body" experience seems to be like what John experienced in Revelation when he was shown when he was "in the Spirit".

So, if John was "in the spirit" and Paul was, too, then is it possible that we could be "in the spirit" in heaven when we are asleep/dead?

Some have suggested that Paul's OOB experience was when he was left for dead in Lystra. If that's the case, do you think it gives some evidence for a spiritual awareness in heaven when the body is dead?

 

[Derf]

I just can't imagine why Paul would allude to being "naked" in that chapter if there is no such thing as being without a body.

If Paul's words about being naked are not speaking of a Christian being without a body then they must have another meaning.

What is that meaning?

I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is a naked state. What I'm saying is that it is an undesirable state, according to Paul.

There is also the strange idea that we meet Jesus in heaven when we die, and then we meet Him in the air when He returns. How is it that we meet Him twice?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thus, I conclude, quite brilliantly, in extreme humility, that pre-fall, Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies of flesh and bone, "energized" by the Spirit of God, that did not require the life sustaining
properties of blood, as we have now.

Let me get this straight, great one. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil their hearts starting beating and began to supply blood to their bodies?

Did their bodies change in any other way when that ate of that tree?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is a naked state. What I'm saying is that it is an undesirable state, according to Paul.

Because Paul speaks of being "naked" then we can understand that there is a state when a person is without a body. What he says about being "naked" must have a meaning we can understand and the only possible meaning which makes sense to me is that a Christian will be without a body when he dies.

There is also the strange idea that we meet Jesus in heaven when we die, and then we meet Him in the air when He returns. How is it that we meet Him twice?

Once a Christian dies he goes to be with the Lord in heaven. Then when the Lord Jesus descends the Christian will be with Him. And then he will be raised in a new body just like the Lord Jesus' body.

Then the living saints who are caught up to meet Him in the air will also put on new glorious bodies.