Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

Paul thought he would be alive for Jesus second coming
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive,

You cut off a little early. "and remain" is pretty important, showing that Paul thought he would be alive physically. Others were considered "asleep". Maybe I'm missing your point.

the criminal said remember me & Jesus corrected him saying Today
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

This is certainly a strong verse for a spiritual presence with the Lord. But where was Jesus "today", and what happened afterward? I'm not sure. Was He in a compartment of Hades preaching to the souls in prison? He wasn't ascended yet for another 40+ days. So I'm not sure how far we can take this verse to say that the thief was in heaven with Jesus.

Paul says to die is gain which being currently with Jesus in heaven would be and
no indication of a time delay between departing & being with Christ
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose.
Php 1:23 For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.



1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

so Paul & the criminal are with God and God is going to bring Paul & the criminal with him

You have to include the rest of the verses in 1 Th 4 to get the full picture:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [1Th 4:16 KJV]
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 KJV]
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [1Th 4:18 KJV]

"And SO shall we ever be with the Lord" tells us this is HOW we shall be with Him, it seems. And then He tells them to comfort one another with these words--not the words that someone is there is spirit. Yet what do we use to comfort one another these days? "Your loved ones are in the presence of Jesus." Are we giving a false comfort by doing so?

This is why this discussion is important, but it doesn't seem to be an essential. What if we were to use the words Paul gave us to comfort those who are mourning? It would change the conversation a bit, wouldn't it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I feel like we're stuck on a circular track here.

I asked you to give me your interpretation of the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Can you do that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Greek words translated as "absent" and "present" in that verse are only found in 2 Corinthians 5:6,8,9.
They do not mean the same thing as the words translated as "absent" and "present" in the following verses, so you need to find out why Paul used different words instead of pretending they mean the same thing.

Let us look at the passage again:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Both the Greek words translated "present" and "absent" are verbs, meaning "to stay at home" and "to depart" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

With that in view give me your interpretation of the meaning of verse 8.

 

[Derf]

I asked you to give me your interpretation of the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Can you do that?

I did that, here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...When-You-Die&p=5207683&viewfull=1#post5207683

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I did that, here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...When-You-Die&p=5207683&viewfull=1#post5207683

If you did I didn't see it. Again, can you give me your interpretation of the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

 

[Derf]

If you did I didn't see it. Again, can you give me your interpretation of the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Here, I'll repost it.

I feel like we're stuck on a circular track here.

I know you think the time between the beginning of the absence and the beginning of the presence is nil--and that may be--but I don't think it is a necessary condition from those particular verses.

What about the logic train?

Which was after this:

I think I already gave my answer to that, but I'll do it again. It is referring the the earthly body. And while we are content to stay in the earthly body as long as God chooses, we don't need to fear death, as death will bring us into the presence of the Lord. But it doesn't say we will be absent from any and all bodies--only "the" body, which I take to mean our earthly body.

Which came after this:

So you admit that there are Christians who are with the LORD in heaven now?

What I'm admitting is that there is some tension between some verses. Your concept of God doesn't allow for any other option than "that there are Christians who are with the LORD in heaven now", since the LORD exists in an eternal now. But that also means that you are in heaven with the Lord right now and have been for all eternity, which is false. Therefore you should question your concept of God. I have suggested some ways that allow for an immediate presence with the Lord upon death without there being Christians in heaven now, but I'm not bound to those options.

In regard to the naked state of which Paul spoke what kind on a body do those have who are with the LORD now?

As I said, I'm not so sure that deceased believers are with the Lord right now.

Let me give you a hint. The Scriptures speak of a natural body and the natural bodies of Christians who have passed away have been turned to dust. The Scriptures also speak of spiritual bodies but those bodies will not be put on until the time when the living saints will be caught up.

Since those in heaven now have neither of those two bodies then if they aren't naked then what kind of body do they have now?

And Paul was saying that since he was waiting for the new, glorious body like the Lord's glorious body he preferred that that would happen while he remained alive so therefore he would not be found naked.

Let's follow your logic.

1. The bodies of believers decay/turn to dust, so they are never used again.
2. God presents believers with spiritual bodies eventually, but not immediately upon death.
3. These bodies, according to 2 Cor 5:2, is from heaven, so in concert with #2, is in heaven with the spiritual presence of the believers, but not joined to them.
4. 1Thessalonians 4:16 says that some thing regarding deceased believers is raised at the coming of the Lord.

What is that thing that will rise first (before living believers), if the natural bodies are decayed (never to be used again) and new bodies are coming from heaven and the deceased believers are already in heaven (albeit without bodies)? What is rising?

Maybe you can address the logic issue I brought up, too (the "logic train") from the list above. I'll restate it here for you:
Let's follow your logic.

1. The bodies of believers decay/turn to dust, so they are never used again.
2. God presents believers with spiritual bodies eventually, but not immediately upon death.
3. These bodies, according to 2 Cor 5:2, are from heaven, so in concert with #2, are in heaven with the spiritual presence of the believers, but not joined to them.
4. 1Th 4:16 says that some thing regarding deceased believers is raised at the coming of the Lord.

What is this "thing" of the deceased that is rising to meet Jesus in the air with the spirits and heavenly bodies of the deceased?

 

[Derf]

Yes, life continues after the death of the body.

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Did you read that? Jesus says they shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces, and that they do not enter. If men cannot enter heaven, then why does Jesus say what he says?

Gt, you have a whole slew of posts starting with this one that are really good for this discussion. I don't think I agree with all of your interpretation, but you did a good job of presenting it!

I usually think of "the kingdom of heaven" as something that is ruled by heaven rather than something that is IN heaven. Jesus seemed to indicate such with these and like parables:

[Mat 13:31 KJV] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
[Mat 13:33 KJV] Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
[Mat 13:44 KJV] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

If so, then Jesus is talking about he teachers and pharisees pushing people away from Jesus, and the kingdom He was starting here on earth--it doesn't have to be talking about a post-death kingdom.

 

[Derf]

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:

Mark 9:2-6

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

Acts 23:8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)

Did you read that? The Pharisees acknowledge that there are angels and spirits. If there is no such thing as spirits living outside of our bodies, then how is it that the Pharisees believe it and were not rebuked for believing it? From the scripture, we get that the Pharisees are commended for the belief in angels and spirits.

Paul doesn't necessarily mean that the spirits are in heaven and able to look down on us. Nor even that the spirits are of humans, especially since it is put up next to "resurrection". The Phariseea might believe in three things: resurrection, angels, and demons (familiar spirits?).

Moses and Elijah are indeed an interesting case. They seemed to be in bodily form, and Peter was ready to make a shelter for them. But their bodies hadn't been resurrected yet. Did they already have bodies in heaven? Then Jesus couldn't have said no one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven.

I think they were like Samuel when he appeared to Saul after his death. But I don't know what substance they were. Maybe their bodies were resurrected for a temporary use. Or maybe they were given temporary bodies. Nothing in the transfiguration nor in Samuel's appearance indicates a body-less spirit.

Read Mark 12:24-27 what Jesus replied to the Sadducees when they came to Jesus with a question about the resurrection. Read in Luke where Jesus says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Mark 12:24-27 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage: they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising---have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:34-38 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Jesus says even Moses showed that the dead rise, and it was Moses who appeared on the mountain of transfiguration.

But has Moses risen? Jesus says "in the resurrection", but the "resurrection" age hadn't started yet. So while Moses was saying that the dead rise, he wasn't saying that they are risen already. Jesus seems to be talking about the hope of the resurrection, and thus the comments aren't for or against a spiritual presence in heaven when He was talking.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here, I'll repost it.

All you did was try to tell us what the verse is not saying. But please give me your interpreation of the meaning of what the verse is really saying.

 

[God's Truth]

Gt, you have a whole slew of posts starting with this one that are really good for this discussion. I don't think I agree with all of your interpretation, but you did a good job of presenting it!

Thank you so much, derf, it is very kind of you and I appreciate it.

I usually think of "the kingdom of heaven" as something that is ruled by heaven rather than something that is IN heaven. Jesus seemed to indicate such with these and like parables:

That is very interesting. I will carefully consider what you say about it and the scriptures you give.

[Mat 13:31 KJV] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
[Mat 13:33 KJV] Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
[Mat 13:44 KJV] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Right, Jesus speaks in parables explaining what the kingdom of heaven is like.
I am not seeing it though as you say about the kingdom of heaven being about something only ruled by heaven. I mean I do believe that the kingdom of heaven is where rule from God is...but I do believe that it is also put in our heart when we are saved. I believe when we are given the Holy Spirit we have entered the realm of heaven.

There in this life is another dimension, and it is spiritual. Jesus tells us how to experience this on earth now.

If so, then Jesus is talking about he teachers and pharisees pushing people away from Jesus, and the kingdom He was starting here on earth--it doesn't have to be talking about a post-death kingdom.

I see what you are saying. In my life of trying to explain the scriptures to others and prove my beliefs with the scriptures, I have come to realize that there are scriptures that can be taken another way by others. I used to leave these scripture out while I make my case. However, I leave them in sometimes when making my overall argument.

I would like to discuss the spiritual realm more with you and how it is a real place and not just an imaginary nice place.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul doesn't necessarily mean that the spirits are in heaven and able to look down on us. Nor even that the spirits are of humans, especially since it is put up next to "resurrection". The Phariseea might believe in three things: resurrection, angels, and demons (familiar spirits?).

Well, as I have shown with scripture, the pharisees believe in spirits and they said Paul could have seen a spirit and nowhere should we gather it is about them believing Paul saw a demon. That would make them go more against Paul, not defend him, as they were doing.

Moses and Elijah are indeed an interesting case. They seemed to be in bodily form, and Peter was ready to make a shelter for them. But their bodies hadn't been resurrected yet. Did they already have bodies in heaven? Then Jesus couldn't have said no one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven.
I think they were like Samuel when he appeared to Saul after his death. But I don't know what substance they were. Maybe their bodies were resurrected for a temporary use. Or maybe they were given temporary bodies. Nothing in the transfiguration nor in Samuel's appearance indicates a body-less spirit.

But has Moses risen? Jesus says "in the resurrection", but the "resurrection" age hadn't started yet. So while Moses was saying that the dead rise, he wasn't saying that they are risen already. Jesus seems to be talking about the hope of the resurrection, and thus the comments aren't for or against a spiritual presence in heaven when He was talking.

No, their spirit was seen. Right, Jesus is the only one who had been resurrected a new body.

 

[Derf]

I am a fighter for the truth. I am posting so much on this topic because it is of special importance to me. I am giving the best defense of the truth that I can.

I want to also take this time to speak against soul sleep; since soul sleep is a major doctrine against the truth.

Why is this topic so important to you?

 

[God's Truth]

Why is this topic so important to you?

You seem like an in depth person to discuss with; the best kind of people to study with.

I have always been more drawn to that which is spiritual over what is of the flesh.

The truth about our spirits is something that is of great importance.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Derf, let us look at the following passage again:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

I will give you my interpretation of the meaning of what is said in "bold" and then if you do not agree with my interpretation then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

Paul speaks of two different things in these verses, one is in regard to being in a physical body and the other is in regard to being with the LORD.

He is saying that when not in the body (being physically dead) we are present with the Lord. And since at the time when Paul wrote those words the Lord was in heaven (and still is) then we can understand that when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven.

Again, if I said anything here that you think is in error then tell me exactly what I said that you think is in error.

 

[God's Truth]

Derf, let us look at the following passage again:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

I will give you my interpretation of the meaning of what is said in "bold" and then if you do not agree with my interpretation then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

Paul speaks of two different things in these verses, one is in regard to being in a physical body and the other is in regard to being with the LORD.

He is saying that when not in the body (being physically dead) we are present with the Lord. And since at the time when Paul wrote those words the Lord was in heaven (and still is) then we can understand that when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven.

Again, if I said anything here that you think is in error then tell me exactly what I said that you think is in error.

It is clear how one can take a scripture and it be seen in a different way.

Those who want the truth do not like it they might have lost a scripture to support their view.

There are other scriptures to use to prove the conscious life of the spirit after the death of the body, if not that scripture.

 

[Derf]

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

This one sounds like the salvation doesn't happen until the day of the Lord. Which makes it seem like it is not in favor of a believer's spiritual presence in heaven. But there are other ways to read it.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

While we live in the flesh in this world, we unite ourselves physically, in the flesh, with our wife, or husband, or with anyone, through inter course. BUT when one is united with Jesus, we are one with him in spirit. He is Spirit and our spirit is connected to him. Spirits do not die. We are our spirit.

The "Spirits do not die" comment is what this thread is questioning, I suppose. Why do we say that?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.


If our spirits do not live on in consciousness, then Paul would not ever have suggested it.

I tend to agree that Paul thought the way you do, but if he didn't know, then perhaps he was just voicing his ignorance on the subject. Hardly a firm support.

But it makes me wonder about out of body experiences, which Paul thinks he might have had. Is there anything helpful we can draw from them? are they merely visions? Or are they actual experiences? I don't know.

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Things above would include the new life we will see at the resurrection.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cane did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

He speaks by his obedience and sincere sacrifice, and even in his death, being persecuted by the world. It doesn't have to mean he is still talking.

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Certainly an odd passage. hard to picture what is meant when God waited patiently, then destroyed them, then preached to them. Almost seems like He gave them a second chance after their life on earth.

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ. Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.

"Spirits of righteous men made perfect" seems to be talking of people that are still on the earth, at least to me. We are made perfect by His blood, despite our imperfections in the flesh.

I'm not saying I have the right take on these--maybe yours is better. But I'm trying to boil the scriptures down to the ones that are not so ambiguous as far as the topic goes.

Your posts are good ones!

 

[God's Truth]

The truth that no one can get around with any kind of legitimate argument is that God is the God of Moses, all are alive to God, Moses was seen on the Mountain of transfiguration, Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for his disciples, Jesus came when Stephan was dying, and it wasn't just to watch him die and disappear until the resurrection.

 

[Derf]

Derf, let us look at the following passage again:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

I will give you my interpretation of the meaning of what is said in "bold" and then if you do not agree with my interpretation then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

Paul speaks of two different things in these verses, one is in regard to being in a physical body and the other is in regard to being with the LORD.

He is saying that when not in the body (being physically dead) we are present with the Lord. And since at the time when Paul wrote those words the Lord was in heaven (and still is) then we can understand that when a person dies physically he will be with the Lord in heaven.

Again, if I said anything here that you think is in error then tell me exactly what I said that you think is in error.

Remember that he wrote these words to people that were alive/"in the body". From their point of view, if they died and had no consciousness after death, then the first thing they would know about when they became conscious again is that they were in Jesus' presence. This fits with both the 2Cor 5:6-8 concept and the 1Th 4:16-17 concept.

If that part fits, then the part about comforting each other (1Th 4:18) with the description in 1Th 4:16-17 should fit as well--and then you don't have the discontinuity of saying that they will be in heaven without their bodies, but that they will suddenly meet Jesus when He comes. The passages don't fit well together with your view.

Surely Paul would have suggested to comfort with the idea that their spirits were already in heaven, rather than pointing to a future meeting.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
This one sounds like the salvation doesn't happen until the day of the Lord. Which makes it seem like it is not in favor of a believer's spiritual presence in heaven. But there are other ways to read it.

I see why you say that. However, Satan having his way with our flesh should make a believer repent and stop the sin which is destroying them. See, we are saved by repenting and living by obeying.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

While we live in the flesh in this world, we unite ourselves physically, in the flesh, with our wife, or husband, or with anyone, through inter course. BUT when one is united with Jesus, we are one with him in spirit. He is Spirit and our spirit is connected to him. Spirits do not die. We are our spirit.
The "Spirits do not die" comment is what this thread is questioning, I suppose. Why do we say that?

We know that flesh dies, but spirits do not die. God ‘s Spirit didn’t die when Jesus died on the cross. Angels are spirits and they do not die. We have a spirit that makes our body a living soul, and man can kill the body but not the body and the spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

If our spirits do not live on in consciousness, then Paul would not ever have suggested it.
I tend to agree that Paul thought the way you do, but if he didn't know, then perhaps he was just voicing his ignorance on the subject. Hardly a firm support.

…but look at who is speaking, Paul is speaking, an apostle.

But it makes me wonder about out of body experiences, which Paul thinks he might have had. Is there anything helpful we can draw from them? are they merely visions? Or are they actual experiences? I don't know.

It proves we have a spirit that lives on after the death of the body.

Have you ever had an out of body experience? Do you know of anyone that has?

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We are dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Things above would include the new life we will see at the resurrection.

No, it could not merely mean that in Philippians 1:22-24.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cane did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
He speaks by his obedience and sincere sacrifice, and even in his death, being persecuted by the world. It doesn't have to mean he is still talking.

It can be taken the way you say. No problem. There is enough scripture to prove the conscious life of the spirit after the death of the body.

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Certainly an odd passage. hard to picture what is meant when God waited patiently, then destroyed them, then preached to them. Almost seems like He gave them a second chance after their life on earth.

Don’t you believe that after Jesus died on the cross he went in his Spirit to prison/hell and preached the gospel there and the gates of hell couldn’t keep him there?

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ. Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.
"Spirits of righteous men made perfect" seems to be talking of people that are still on the earth, at least to me. We are made perfect by His blood, despite our imperfections in the flesh.

…but that is not what the scripture says. The scripture say that when we come to Jesus to be saved we come to heaven, and that is where the spirits of righteous men made perfect are.

I'm not saying I have the right take on these--maybe yours is better. But I'm trying to boil the scriptures down to the ones that are not so ambiguous as far as the topic goes.

This is good studying. Iron sharpens iron.

Your posts are good ones!

Good studying with you!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Remember that he wrote these words to people that were alive/"in the body". From their point of view, if they died and had no consciousness after death, then the first thing they would know about when they became conscious again is that they were in Jesus' presence. This fits with both the 2Cor 5:6-8 concept and the 1Th 4:16-17 concept.

If a person is in heaven with the Lord but has no consciousness after death then why would Paul say thre following?:

"I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far" (Phil.1:23).​

Why would Paul say that being with the Lord is better by far than remaining on the earth in his physical body if he thinks that he will be unconscious when he gets to heaven?