Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul specifically states, "we shall not be found naked," showing the transition happens instantly.

That is not what he said. Instead, he said that he preferred not to be found naked. In other words, he was saying that he would prefer that he be caught up and put on a new body instead of dying and be in a state where he would be without a body.

That does not happen in the clouds.
The dead in Christ do not even make it to the clouds until they are caught up together with the believers who are still alive at His coming.

That does not happen in the clouds.
The dead in Christ do not even make it to the clouds until they are caught up together with the believers who are still alive at His coming.

Let's look at the passage again:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.15-17).​

The living saints will be caught up together with "them" in the clouds. The word "them" can only be referring to the saints who are already in the clouds.

 

[God's Truth]

Yep.
The spirit, when added to a body, creates a living soul according to scripture.

Okay, I see more what you meant, I think. Do you mean BEFORE the spirit is put in the newly conceived body it did not exist before? I would agree with that. I am not of those who say we existed in consciousness before coming to earth.

God is the Father of our spirits; He puts a spirit in a conceived human, and that human starts to grow inside the womb of it's mother. Our spirit changes and grows with our physical body, it looks exactly like our body and it is affected by life and is us. It is from how we think and feel and grow.

Those who are more interested in pleasing their flesh make for themselves a spirit doomed for hell.

Those who live to please Jesus make for themselves a spirit who is one with God and is changed to the image of Christ.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Besides that, can you tell me what Paul was referring to when he used the words "naked" and "unclothed" in the following verses?:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (1 Cor.5:1-4).​

Paul specifically states, "we shall not be found naked," showing the transition happens instantly.

That is not what he said.

I highlighted it for you.

Let's look at the passage again:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.15-17).​

The living saints will be caught up together with "them" in the clouds. The word "them" can only be referring to the saints who are already in the clouds.

Here is a literal translation that shows your mistake:

1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 YLT 17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;​

Here is a supporting verse:

REVELATION 11:12 YLT 12 and they heard a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, `Come up hither;' and they went up to the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them;​

 

[God's Truth]

James says that the body without the spirit is dead.

That shows us that we are our spirit.

Now if one is having an out of body experience, does it mean our flesh body died, or is just immobile and not conscious?

I say, according to the scriptures, it means the flesh body is immobile and not conscious, or it can mean the person died.

Paul lets us know that the spirit lives on in consciousness when he says that he knows a man caught up...out of the body...

 

[genuineoriginal]

Okay, I see more what you meant, I think. Do you mean BEFORE the spirit is put in the newly conceived body it did not exist before? I would agree with that. I am not of those who say we existed in consciousness before coming to earth.

No, I am saying that human spirit has no identity, it is not a person, it is power.
The human identity only exists as the human soul while human spirit is providing life to the human body.
When the human body dies and human spirit leaves the dead body, the person ceases to exist.

 

[God's Truth]

No, I am saying that human spirit has no identity, it is not a person, it is power.
The human identity only exists as the human soul while human spirit is providing life to the human body.
When the human body dies and human spirit leaves the dead body, the person ceases to exist.

Oh okay, good to know that is what you are saying.

The reason though that it cannot be as you just said is because Paul speaks of a man caught up without his body. Not only that, there are ghosts/spirits which look like the human without the flesh, blood, and bones.

It will be up to you to accept the scriptures that speak about that.

Did the pharisees argue that Paul might have spoken to a blob of power and with no identity? No.

Did Paul claim a man was caught out of the spirit without eyes and the inability to talk? No.

Did the disciples think Jesus was a blob of power speaking to them, or a spirit/ghost that looked like a human? Yes, they thought Jesus might be a ghost/spirit speaking to them because it looked like a man.

So if you consider it carefully enough, considering all the scriptures which speak along the same line...you can see that our spirit is us, looks exactly like us, and can see and talk and reason.

 

[genuineoriginal]

James says that the body without the spirit is dead.

That shows us that we are our spirit.

James did not say the body without the spirit is dead, James said the body without spirit is dead.

James 2:26 WYC 26 For as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

 

[God's Truth]

James did not say the body without the spirit is dead, James said the body without spirit is dead.

James 2:26 WYC 26 For as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

No, now you are playing games with words that do not matter.

King James Bible
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Here is a rebuke I am supposed to give you:

2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.


You have obviously found a translation that you think helps you to prove your beliefs of the spirit not being what it is.

 

[God's Truth]

Our flesh without the spirit is rendered dead, or without consciousness.

Through the scriptures we can know that our spirits look like us and are our consciousness.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Oh okay, good to know that is what you are saying.

The reason though that it cannot be as you just said is because Paul speaks of a man caught up without his body.
Did Paul claim a man was caught out of the spirit without eyes and the inability to talk? No.

Paul said he didn't know whether it was in the body or out of body.
His body was not dead when this happened, his soul was alive, so we can't say that Paul was a spirit at that time.

Not only that, there are ghosts/spirits which look like the human without the flesh, blood, and bones.

The pagans believe in ghosts/spirits that look like humans, but this is not anything the early Christians believed in.

Did the pharisees argue that Paul might have spoken to a blob of power and with no identity? No.[/QUOTE]
I don't know which passage you are talking about here.

Did the disciples think Jesus was a blob of power speaking to them, or a spirit/ghost that looked like a human? Yes, they thought Jesus might be a ghost/spirit speaking to them because it looked like a man.

Jesus had a body, ate food, and challenged Thomas to touch him.

So if you consider it carefully enough, considering all the scriptures which speak along the same line...you can see that our spirit is us, looks exactly like us, and can see and talk and reason.
It will be up to you to accept the scriptures that speak about that.

I have looked at the scriptures from both sides of this argument and have concluded that the overwhelming majority of the scriptures speak as if the human spirit is not the human person but they speak as if the human soul is the human person.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, now you are playing games with words that do not matter.

Adding the word "the" before the word "spirit" does matter in this conversation.

Here is a rebuke I am supposed to give you:

2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Proverbs 30:5-6 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.​

 

[God's Truth]

Paul said he didn't know whether it was in the body or out of body.

That is proof that one can be out of the body.

His body was not dead when this happened, his soul was alive, so we can't say that Paul was a spirit at that time.

The scripture proves our spirits are living, seeing, talking, reasonable beings.

The pagans believe in ghosts/spirits that look like humans, but this is not anything the early Christians believed in.

You are not speaking according to the scriptures now.

Where do you get from the scriptures that pagans believe in ghost/spirits?

More than once the DISCIPLES thought that Jesus was a ghost/spirit.

I don't know which passage you are talking about here.

Acts 23:9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Jesus had a body, ate food, and challenged Thomas to touch him.

You are missing the point…the disciples THOUGHT Jesus might have been a ghost/spirit.

If spirits/ghosts do not look like us, then they would not have wondered.

I have looked at the scriptures from both sides of this argument and have concluded that the overwhelming majority of the scriptures speak as if the human spirit is not the human person but they speak as if the human soul is the human person.

Then why would the disciples EVER get that Jesus was a ghost/spirit?

Why would Paul ever wonder if the man caught up was out of the body?

 

[God's Truth]

Adding the word "the" before the word "spirit" does matter in this conversation.

No, it does not; and, you went out of your way to find a translation which you believe promotes our spirits being a blob.

Proverbs 30:5-6 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.​

I gave scripture that plainly says you are not to argue about words that do not matter.

If you want to make that one word 'the' matter so much---it still does NOT prove what you want.

Argue about that word or not, it does not matter.
It does NOT change the truth.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is proof that one can be out of the body.

It is a lack of proof.

The scripture proves our spirits are living, seeing, talking, reasonable beings.

Not that I can find.

You are not speaking according to the scriptures now.

Where do you get from the scriptures that pagans believe in ghost/spirits?

The Old Testament warnings against people with "familiar spirits".

More than once the DISCIPLES thought that Jesus was a ghost/spirit.

You are missing the point…the disciples THOUGHT Jesus might have been a ghost/spirit.

If spirits/ghosts do not look like us, then they would not have wondered.

Then why would the disciples EVER get that Jesus was a ghost/spirit?

They lived in a time when Hellenization had spread a lot of pagan concepts.

Why would Paul ever wonder if the man caught up was out of the body?

Paul knew that flesh and blood could not exist in heaven, so he wondered how the man could be caught up to heaven.

Acts 23:9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Angels are spiritual beings and so are unclean spirits.
Jesus cast out unclean spirits from many people.
Mankind was not created as a spiritual being but as a living soul, so any reference to the angels and unclean spirits do not apply to the human spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

It is a lack of proof.

I don’t know why you keep saying that, since Paul isn’t some guy you like any other guy.

Not that I can find.

Then why in the world would anyone thing that Jesus was one?
Why in the world would suggest man’s spirit is one?

The Old Testament warnings against people with "familiar spirits".

You are delving into another topic.

They lived in a time when Hellenization had spread a lot of pagan concepts.

Don’t add to the Bible.

Paul knew that flesh and blood could not exist in heaven, so he wondered how the man could be caught up to heaven.

No, he said plainly if it was in the spirit or not.

Angels are spiritual beings and so are unclean spirits.

And so are our spirits.

Jesus cast out unclean spirits from many people.

I am not speaking of demons. Are you going to speak about demons when I speak of Paul and his saying in or out of the body? What does that have to do with demons? Are you thinking the disciples, when looking at Jesus thought he was a demon?!

Mankind was not created as a spiritual being but as a living soul, so any reference to the angels and unclean spirits do not apply to the human spirit.

We are talking about spirits and you want to promote your false teachings. Don't speak of demons when I speak of spirits.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don’t know why you keep saying that, since Paul isn’t some guy you like any other guy.
No, he said plainly if it was in the spirit or not.

2 Corinthians 12:2 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.​

It is a lack of proof because of the words of Paul (highlighted).

Angels are spiritual beings and so are unclean spirits.

And so are our spirits.

Don’t add to the Bible.

Are you thinking the disciples, when looking at Jesus thought he was a demon?!

They thought Jesus was a g5326 φάντασμα phantasma (phantasm), not a g4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (spirit) when Jesus walked on the water.

Jesus corrected the Disciples that thought He was a spirit on the road to Emmaus.

Luke 24:39 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

I am not speaking of demons. Don't speak of demons when I speak of spirits.

You are the one that brought up Acts 23, which was speaking about angels and demons (spirits).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul specifically states, "we shall not be found naked," showing the transition happens instantly.

No, Paul says this:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).​

Paul speaks of desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven and if that happens then we shall not be found naked.

But if it doesn't happen and they die before the rapture then they will be naked, not having a body.

According to your idea even though Paul speaks of the possibilty of being found naked you say that it is not possible.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Paul speaks of desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven and if that happens then we shall not be found naked.

But if it doesn't happen and they die before the rapture then they will be naked, not having a body.

You seem to be trying to read more into the verse than it states.

According to your idea even though Paul speaks of the possibilty of being found naked you say that it is not possible.

Paul uses nakedness as a allegory for death because of no longer having a body to live in.
He is not talking about living while having no body as you seem to think.
Paul contrasts three things: living in a mortal body, death, and living in an immortal body.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul uses nakedness as a allegory for death because of no longer having a body to live in.

But you said that a person will always have a body to live in.

Besides that, Paul uses the word "naked" in the sense of being "unclothed."

 

[genuineoriginal]

But you said that a person will always have a body to live in.

A person cannot live without a body.

Besides that, Paul uses the word "naked" in the sense of being "unclothed."

Paul uses the word "naked" in the sense of not having a mortal body and not having an immortal body.

You do know that allegories must be interpreted to find their literal counterpart and not accepted as a literal statement, don't you?