ECT WHAT PHIL 4:9 IS SAYING TO ALL !!

[Danoh]

Another point - Israel is to be a kingdom in which the common wealth or prosperous well being of its people is a top priority.

Its' absence is one that God is ever taking issue with Israel's spritual rulers about.

Thus, an aspect of the Lords very, very social gospel.

A picture of it before Israel fell and the powers of that as a foretaste of said world to come before they were withdrawn?

Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

They went from that, to...

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Thus, it is in that sense that we are fellow heirs with said poor saints - in the spiritual things as fellow citizens with them in the spiritual things of the Lord.

But we are not Israel - they are - the Israel of God.

We are the Body of Christ.

Paul mentions both in Galatians 6.

There, he relates how both can have once more; the peace they had once had after Acts 15 (but that the Judaizers had overthrown).

 

[Danoh]

I think your point is that Gentiles could be saved by becoming Jews (please correct me if I'm mistaken). That could be so, but it wouldn't attest to anything, as when they became Jews, they were no longer Gentiles. Thus, Gentiles still had no access to salvation--they fell under the rule of Jewish law.

A perhaps crude illustration would be to point out that boys are only allowed to become Girl Scouts by becoming girls. It is true that boys would have access to the club, but the Girl Scouts would still never have any boys in their club. The wall of separation is still in place.

But Paul was adamant that the wall was no longer separating them. [Eph 2:14 KJV] 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Back when it was in place; that system had worked as follows; thus the right understanding in the following, but the wrong Dispensation...

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Here is that same understanding...

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Circumcision and the Law were no longer necessary.

They were...once.

 

[Derf]

Hi , and did you find a verse where Peter and the 12 apostles preached the MYSTERY ?

So ETHNOS in the Greek is a transliterated word and just means that there are many meaning , like :

#1 , Race
#2 , Heathen
#3 Gentiles
34, Nation

If it was a MYSTERY from the foundation and BEFORE the worlds were made Col 1:26 and only given to Paul !!

The correct translation of ETHNOS in Rom 16:26 is GENTILES , because it in Wtitten in a letter to the Body of Christ and not Jewish !!

It is also in the AORIST TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and a PARTICIPLE and that verb GNONIZO the Passed tense at the message was given to Paul and it should be translated " HAVING BEEN MADE " where HAVING ending in " ING " is the participlke !!

dan p

Hi Dan,
That's all very interesting, but you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is this mystery/secret that you say Paul received, but the other disciples didn't <ever>? The word "mystery" didn't have some special meaning--it meant something that wasn't known before. So if Paul is talking about a mystery that has been revealed (and therefore no longer a mystery--Col 1:26, as you so adeptly pointed out, tells us it was also revealed to the saints, of which I believe Peter and the other apostles would be counted as members), please help me to understand by revealing it to me.

I tried to converse with you about the word and its supposed meaning, but you apparently didn't agree with me. So now you tell me and see if I agree with you. That's usually how conversations should work.

 

[Derf]

Another point - Israel is to be a kingdom in which the common wealth or prosperous well being of its people is a top priority.

And yet, Jesus seemed to think that some would not escape poverty (Matt 26:11).

Thus, it is in that sense that we are fellow heirs with said poor saints - in the spiritual things as fellow citizens with them in the spiritual things of the Lord.

But we are not Israel - they are - the Israel of God.

We are the Body of Christ.

Paul mentions both in Galatians 6.

There, he relates how both can have once more; the peace they had once had after Acts 15 (but that the Judaizers had overthrown).

Does he mention both saying they are separate things? I don't see it. In fact, he admonishes the Galatians not to be drawn into the works of the flesh, because then they won't "inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal 5:21)--as if that is something that could actually happen to these Gentiles. Is the "kingdom of God" now something for the body of Christ and not something for the "Israel of God"? Seems inconsistent with some of your other statements.

 

[Derf]

Back when it was in place; that system had worked as follows; thus the right understanding in the following, but the wrong Dispensation...

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Here is that same understanding...

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Circumcision and the Law were no longer necessary.

They were...once.

I'm not so sure they had the right understanding. Yes, God told them to be circumcised, but He was looking for more than that. He wanted them to follow His laws which said: Love God and Love your Neighbor. Circumcision without the love was worthless. But to be sure, circumcision ceased to become necessary as an outward showing of their inward state. And the Law as an entity was no longer necessary, if they were to walk by the spirit. Certainly there is a different dispensation. But that seems to have been brought about by the sacrifice of Christ, and not by some kind of punishment of Israel.

This could get confusing if we continue with two threads. I'll let you pick which one to continue, assuming you want to.

 

[DAN P]

Hi Dan,
That's all very interesting, but you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is this mystery/secret that you say Paul received, but the other disciples didn't <ever>? The word "mystery" didn't have some special meaning--it meant something that wasn't known before. So if Paul is talking about a mystery that has been revealed (and therefore no longer a mystery--Col 1:26, as you so adeptly pointed out, tells us it was also revealed to the saints, of which I believe Peter and the other apostles would be counted as members), please help me to understand by revealing it to me.

I tried to converse with you about the word and its supposed meaning, but you apparently didn't agree with me. So now you tell me and see if I agree with you. That's usually how conversations should work.

Hi and the MYSTERY contains the following :

#1 , 1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ

#2 , Eph 4:12 , For the Perfection of the Body of Christ

#3 , The Mystery is only in the Dispensation of Grace

#4 , The MYSTERY contains the Gospel of the Grace of God , Acgs 20:24

#5 , In epn 2:8 any that believes in the dispensation of Grace is saved by Grace and not by Repentance, or Baptism

#6 , All who are saved today are placed into gthe Body of Christ and ARE / ESTE in Christ which is in the PRESENT TENSE in the dispensation of Grace means OSAS !!

#8 , There are about 33 things that happen at the time of salvation ; sealed , placed into the Body , OSAS , all. in the Body will be Departed /called the Rapture ETC

#9 All in the Body of Christ are to be JUDGED by Paul's Gospel Rom 2:16

These are just a FEW but under what Peter taught , you had to keep the 613 Laws of Moses , which is different than Grace !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

And yet, Jesus seemed to think that some would not escape poverty (Matt 26:11).


Does he mention both saying they are separate things? I don't see it. In fact, he admonishes the Galatians not to be drawn into the works of the flesh, because then they won't "inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal 5:21)--as if that is something that could actually happen to these Gentiles. Is the "kingdom of God" now something for the body of Christ and not something for the "Israel of God"? Seems inconsistent with some of your other statements.

You're off base in both instances.

In the one; the reason Israel had poor among them was because Israel was then under a foreign power that had a heavy say in Israels' economic policies; but also, their corrupt spiritual leadership had resulted in the Israelite's violating of their commonwealth tithing system responsibilities to one another.

Compare to the "all things in common" of Acts 2 and 4 that Hebrews 2 relates had been a foretaste of their world to come.

That had not changed with the Lord's appearance "within" their midst but by His "finger of God" during its' short season, and then again, for a short time in Early Acts; when God was still offering Israel a pardon. With Israel's fall at Acts 7; that empowerment was not the same; the poverty and the squabbles returning...

Until His return, Acts 3.

And you are off-base in your latter argument as well; because you have (perhaps unwittingly) once more cherry picked a passage outside of its actual basis' larger and wider, overall scope and context.

Within Paul's much larger and wider scope and context, he had stated something similar to the Corinthians and there he had made it obvious he was contrasting their former conduct as lost people with what their conduct as saved people was to be, as their focus.

And he was basing that, in turn, on core principles he would later lay out in written form, in Romans 5 thru 8 and Romans 12.

It is evident throughout those writings he wrote prior to Romans that he had been preaching core Romans doctrines all along.

Romans ending up a sort of an all encompasing Evangelism Training Clinic able to establish or ground one, in being able to fully study out all sorts of issues the Romans could then apply within their work of faith; a work on their part, already well underway and just as well known throughout that massively gargantuan Empire that Rome was back then.

You'll have to study out those two passages you cited from within a much larger and wider scope and context.

Anything less than that, and you end up at the risk of a cherry pick...unawares...once more.

 

[DAN P]

Hi Dan,
That's all very interesting, but you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is this mystery/secret that you say Paul received, but the other disciples didn't <ever>? The word "mystery" didn't have some special meaning--it meant something that wasn't known before. So if Paul is talking about a mystery that has been revealed (and therefore no longer a mystery--Col 1:26, as you so adeptly pointed out, tells us it was also revealed to the saints, of which I believe Peter and the other apostles would be counted as members), please help me to understand by revealing it to me.

I tried to converse with you about the word and its supposed meaning, but you apparently didn't agree with me. So now you tell me and see if I agree with you. That's usually how conversations should work.

Hi and just where in Col 1:26 mention Peter or the Apostles ?

It was revealed to Paul and than Paul revealed to the saints !!

I wrote a longer answer but my compter took a dump !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

I know that mystery

Hi and I misunderstood what you were saying , sorry and many times I feel my operation in May !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

All bow to DP Brock Jr :chuckle:

Hi and you going MOONCALF on me ??

I heard him speak in person !!

I know that you throwing DIGS AT ME , YOU MUST BE A NAMBY-PAMBY for sure !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and just where in Col 1:26 mention Peter or the Apostles ?

It was revealed to Paul and than Paul revealed to the saints !!

I wrote a longer answer but my compter took a dump !!

dan p

A thought...write your answers out in Microsoft WORD.

Start a document; give it a name right away, save it, and start typing.

Every so often pause, and click save.

After you are done typing, then read thru it and edit it.

Then click save when you are done editing.

Then copy and past it on here.

Don't be a hard head - try that at least once, before concluding against it.

Hope that helps you in your would be lording it over others, bro :chuckle:

 

[Derf]

You're off base in both instances.

...

Anything less than that, and you end up at the risk of a cherry pick...unawares...once more.

Hi Danoh,
I might not get to this for a reply before the weekend is out, but thanks for the thoughts.
Derf

 

[Danoh]

Hi Danoh,
I might not get to this for a reply before the weekend is out, but thanks for the thoughts.
Derf

No problem; it's given me some time to be a bit more specific in that post

 

[Derf]

Hi and the MYSTERY contains the following :

#1 , 1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ

#2 , Eph 4:12 , For the Perfection of the Body of Christ

#3 , The Mystery is only in the Dispensation of Grace

#4 , The MYSTERY contains the Gospel of the Grace of God , Acgs 20:24

#5 , In epn 2:8 any that believes in the dispensation of Grace is saved by Grace and not by Repentance, or Baptism

#6 , All who are saved today are placed into gthe Body of Christ and ARE / ESTE in Christ which is in the PRESENT TENSE in the dispensation of Grace means OSAS !!

#8 , There are about 33 things that happen at the time of salvation ; sealed , placed into the Body , OSAS , all. in the Body will be Departed /called the Rapture ETC

#9 All in the Body of Christ are to be JUDGED by Paul's Gospel Rom 2:16

These are just a FEW but under what Peter taught , you had to keep the 613 Laws of Moses , which is different than Grace !!

dan p

The mystery "contains" those things? I don't understand. Are those things the revelation of the mystery, or is the mystery still so mysterious that you can't tell me what it is? Paul wasn't quite so tight-lipped. He said that the mystery was that the Gentiles could be saved.

In your last statement about Peter and the 613 laws, I am sure you are mistaken. Peter was among those that affirmed the Gentile brethren's place without the need for following the whole law:
[Act 15:10-11 KJV] 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[Eph 3:4-6 KJV] 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Hi and just where in Col 1:26 mention Peter or the Apostles ?

It was revealed to Paul and than Paul revealed to the saints !!

I wrote a longer answer but my compter took a dump !!

dan p

Sorry you lost your post--bummer!
Col 1:26 mentions "saints", of which Peter was one. Eph 3:5 mentions the "holy" apostles, of which Peter was one. Both verses use the same idea ("saints" and "holy" are both from the same word). Whichever verse you prefer, they both speak of the revelation of the mystery to those that include believers in Jesus Christ as a whole, which would include Peter as an individual.

When Peter also refers to Paul's writings as scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16), he assures us that he got the message of what was "revealed" to Paul. Therefore Peter was not unaware of the "mystery" Paul preached. I'll remind you of what you posted previously:

Only Paul was told about the Revelation of this SECRET and only revealed to Paul and never to the 12 apostles !!

dan p

Peter's admonition in 2 Pet 3:16 is pretty direct in saying we should not twist Paul's words into something they are not--as it leads to our destruction. I hope you aren't doing that in your zeal to promote this everlasting "mystery".

 

[DAN P]

The mystery "contains" those things? I don't understand. Are those things the revelation of the mystery, or is the mystery still so mysterious that you can't tell me what it is? Paul wasn't quite so tight-lipped. He said that the mystery was that the Gentiles could be saved.

In your last statement about Peter and the 613 laws, I am sure you are mistaken. Peter was among those that affirmed the Gentile brethren's place without the need for following the whole law:
[Act 15:10-11 KJV] 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[Eph 3:4-6 KJV] 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Sorry you lost your post--bummer!
Col 1:26 mentions "saints", of which Peter was one. Eph 3:5 mentions the "holy" apostles, of which Peter was one. Both verses use the same idea ("saints" and "holy" are both from the same word). Whichever verse you prefer, they both speak of the revelation of the mystery to those that include believers in Jesus Christ as a whole, which would include Peter as an individual.

When Peter also refers to Paul's writings as scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16), he assures us that he got the message of what was "revealed" to Paul. Therefore Peter was not unaware of the "mystery" Paul preached. I'll remind you of what you posted previously:


Peter's admonition in 2 Pet 3:16 is pretty direct in saying we should not twist Paul's words into something they are not--as it leads to our destruction. I hope you aren't doing that in your zeal to promote this everlasting "mystery".

Hi and you see that in post #74 , did Peter ever preach what I wrote in that post ??

If you do find that Peter preached the MYSTERY , give me that verse !!

dan p

 

[Derf]

Hi and you see that in post #74 , did Peter ever preach what I wrote in that post ??

If you do find that Peter preached the MYSTERY , give me that verse !!

dan p

Re: your question: Maybe I don't understand how the post numbering works, but I think I wrote #74, not you.

Re: your imperative: I don't even think Paul preached a lot of what you wrote in the post of yours I quoted in #74. I did give you the verse(s), 2 Pet 3:15-16, to show that Peter pointed people to Paul's epistles and said those things were true. Thus as much as we can say Paul preached the MYSTERY revealed to him by sending out epistles containing the truth of that MYSTERY, so Peter also preached Paul's MYSTERY by referring his readers to Paul's epistles.

I'm still struggling to figure out what you think the mystery is. I'm beginning to think that it is too mysterious for you, and that you don't really know what it is. Please prove me wrong.

 

[DAN P]

Re: your question: Maybe I don't understand how the post numbering works, but I think I wrote #74, not you.

Re: your imperative: I don't even think Paul preached a lot of what you wrote in the post of yours I quoted in #74. I did give you the verse(s), 2 Pet 3:15-16, to show that Peter pointed people to Paul's epistles and said those things were true. Thus as much as we can say Paul preached the MYSTERY revealed to him by sending out epistles containing the truth of that MYSTERY, so Peter also preached Paul's MYSTERY by referring his readers to Paul's epistles.

I'm still struggling to figure out what you think the mystery is. I'm beginning to think that it is too mysterious for you, and that you don't really know what it is. Please prove me wrong.

Hi and then where is Peter preaching the MYSTERY in the bible and you better read 2 Peter 3:15 and 16 does not mean Peter knew the MYSTERY , at all as Paul was the only that could tell him !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Re: your question: Maybe I don't understand how the post numbering works, but I think I wrote #74, not you.

Re: your imperative: I don't even think Paul preached a lot of what you wrote in the post of yours I quoted in #74. I did give you the verse(s), 2 Pet 3:15-16, to show that Peter pointed people to Paul's epistles and said those things were true. Thus as much as we can say Paul preached the MYSTERY revealed to him by sending out epistles containing the truth of that MYSTERY, so Peter also preached Paul's MYSTERY by referring his readers to Paul's epistles.

I'm still struggling to figure out what you think the mystery is. I'm beginning to think that it is too mysterious for you, and that you don't really know what it is. Please prove me wrong.

You'd be surprised how often one MADist or another out their in Christendom goes on...and on..about The Mystery...but never says what it is.

 

[DAN P]

You'd be surprised how often one MADist or another out their in Christendom goes on...and on..about The Mystery...but never says what it is.

Hi and as roll along that was true from the forum we came from and I have been in many other forums , BUT when you have a diverse group , it causes much more discussion and controversy and you need to clean up those ROUGH EDGES that you have !!

dan p

 

[Derf]

Hi and then where is Peter preaching the MYSTERY in the bible and you better read 2 Peter 3:15 and 16 does not mean Peter knew the MYSTERY , at all as Paul was the only that could tell him !!

dan p

So you are saying that you are much smarter than Peter--and that you can tell what the MYSTERY is from what Paul wrote, but Peter, who read Paul's writings and even had the opportunity to discuss Paul's writings with him in person, was not able to figure out the MYSTERY?

And that you, being so smart as to figure out the MYSTERY by yourself, without the help of Paul's in-person communication, are still not smart enough to explain what the MYSTERY is to someone else? I bow to your great and inaccessible wisdom! :bow:

And why are we all-caps-ing "MYSTERY"? We only capitalize the first letter of Jesus' name. Are we perhaps worshiping the MYSTERY over and above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, like the inaccessible gods of heathen religions that need priests to explain them to us and to interpret their words? May it never be!!!