What is the Gospel?

[intojoy]

Why does inability to explain how man is responsible in the face of Godly predetermination trump inability to explain the maintenance of God's Sovereignty in the face of man's ability to choose?

Why do you choose to exercise faith in the former? Aren't you thereby declaring the latter impossible? If so, why?

God created the angels with the ability to make a choice contrary with their nature, they were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness. Once those angels that sinned rebelled they were confirmed unholy while the angels that did not sin were confirmed in holiness and are no longer able to sin.

Adam was created righteous. He was created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to choose contrary to his nature. But for Adam, unlike the angels that sinned God provided salvation. Adam hid himself and would not have sought God, he could not seek God because sin had touched every part of him he had become dead to God. God took it upon Himself to go and find Adam.

Did God not know beforehand what Adam was going to do in the garden? Yes God knee, God not only knows the future, He knows everything simultaneously at the same time, He is omniscient. Gathering what can be known of God by what and only what God has chosen to reveal to man concerning Himself, we can see that God allowed for the fall of Adam to take place. That does not mean that God predestined Adam to sin. It means that God created Adam with an ability to choose against his created nature. If anything, this shows that there is only one being that is good only one being that never sins and in whom is no darkness, only one God. Everything else is a creation.


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[heir]

Just so I know exactly your perspective - you do acknowledge that the same Gospel was preached by Paul to both Jews and Gentiles in Acts 13?

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

and that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile:

Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

While we can see that Luke recorded Paul preaching the forgiveness of sins in Acts 13:38-39 KJV Acts 15:11 KJV has nothing to do with no distinction in the church which is His Body or the gospel Paul preached.

 

[heir]

I don't really see the subtle distinctions you see.

All those examples of faith plus works vs grace without works is as glaring a distinction the Bible makes (Romans 11:6 KJV)!

You mention John 14:15 and Matthew 23:2-3 regarding the commandments but doesn't Paul explains in Romans 10 that it is through faith that the Law is kept? He explicitly says:

Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

Israel fell because they were going about to establish their own righteousness without faith! Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They had to have both faith plus works! That's how they proved their faith James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV.

The gospel of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is not of works (not ours, but His Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)! We are in the but now where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

Things that differ are not the same!

 

[Sonnet]

While we can see that Luke recorded Paul preaching the forgiveness of sins in Acts 13:38-39 KJV Acts 15:11 KJV has nothing to do with no distinction in the church which is His Body or the gospel Paul preached.

Paul is telling the Jews that they are saved in the same way the Gentiles are - through the grace of Jesus Christ. It's the same Gospel isn't it?

 

[steko]

Things that differ are not the same!

Yeah but, things that are not the same are different!

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah but, things that are not the same are different!

Guess you told her. Good job, Steko. :thumb:

 

[Sonnet]

All those examples of faith plus works vs grace without works is as glaring a distinction the Bible makes (Romans 11:6 KJV)! Israel fell because they were going about to establish their own righteousness without faith! Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They had to have both faith plus works! That's how they proved their faith James 2:18 KJV, James 2:20 KJV.

The gospel of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is not of works (not ours, but His Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)! We are in the but now where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

Things that differ are not the same!

That works are a proof of genuine faith is evident from Jesus's own words:

Matthew 25:34-40
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

[glorydaz]

Why does inability to explain how man is responsible in the face of Godly predetermination trump inability to explain the maintenance of God's Sovereignty in the face of man's ability to choose?

Why do you choose to exercise faith in the former? Aren't you thereby declaring the latter impossible? If so, why?

The only inability I'm seeing is yours.
Your failure to understand or accept what has been explained.


Your habit, apparently, is to blame the messenger rather than accept your own failures. :juggle:

We see the same thing with those who complain we aren't adequately explaining our Triune God.

 

[heir]

Paul is telling the Jews that they are saved in the same way the Gentiles are - through the grace of Jesus Christ. It's the same Gospel isn't it?

Acts 15:11 KJV is Luke's account of what Peter said and no, it's not the same gospel. To see the evidence, first survey the Acts 15:11 KJV (as the perversions get it wrong) and Acts 10 to see what it is that Peter preached to the one house of Gentiles to whom he went kicking and screaming. It's NOT the gospel of Christ that Paul preached as the power of God. In fact, it is contrary to it. For the short version compare Acts 10:35 KJV with Titus 3:5 KJV. More things that differ. Isn't it time you approve things that are excellent? I would suggest you get your salvation in order by trusting the Lord now believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV and then 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!

 

[heir]

Yeah but, things that are not the same are different!

:chuckle: Hi brother! :wave:

 

[Sonnet]

The only inability I'm seeing is yours.
Your failure to understand or accept what has been explained.


Your habit, apparently, is to blame the messenger rather than accept your own failures. :juggle:

We see the same thing with those who complain we aren't adequately explaining our Triune God.

Scepticism is healthy isn't it? Jesus demonstrated His authenticity (through miracles) because those around Him would rightly exercise such scepticism. Jesus said Himself, in so many words...'be sceptical':

Matthew 24:4-5,11, 23-26
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[glorydaz]

Scepticism is healthy isn't it? Jesus demonstrated His authenticity (through miracles) because those around Him would rightly exercise such scepticism. Jesus said Himself, in so many words...'be sceptical':

Matthew 24:4,11, 23-26
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Nice try. We're talking about your accusing others of not being able to "explain"....when, in fact, the fault lies with you.

It's basically your lack of trust in God...not anything to do with how the Gospel is preached...or "explained" as you put it.

 

[Sonnet]

Nice try. We're talking about your accusing others of not being able to "explain"....when, in fact, the fault lies with you.

It's basically your lack of trust in God...not anything to do with how the Gospel is preached...or "explained" as you put it.

Do you believe in the Creation story, Noah's literal flood and a donkey that spoke?

Faith isn't easy or straight-forward. I merely am acknowledging that.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you believe in the Creation story, Noah's literal flood and a donkey that spoke?

I recognize an attempt to change the subject when I see one.

This thread, as you should know, is about the the Gospel.

Faith isn't easy or straight-forward. I merely am acknowledging that.

No, you're actually mocking Faith while mocking the Bible.

Faith is the most straight-forward thing there is.
It's what men try to add to faith that causes disagreements.

 

[Nihilo]

What assures you that the Gospel of Jesus is truth?

The Catholic Church is everywhere, in every country on earth as far as I know. Her bishops (cf. 1Ti3:1KJV) are from every race, she is the oldest church, and a true (and early) global organization. If Easter is nonfiction, then the Church being all over the earth many centuries later, makes sense. It's not proof, it just assures me, which is what you asked. It's another thing that assures me, beyond what I already answered before.

If you are on the fence, realize that that means you're unsure enough that Easter is fiction, that you're on the fence! I'm concerned with people putting very, very long, but not infinite (i.e., 100% certainty) odds, on Easter being nonfiction.

You have to be sure Easter is fiction with 100% certainty, and if you can't do that, then you have to be 100% certain that Easter is nonfiction. That is the optimal choice, on the merits, on paper. It's like comparing the choice of whether or not to burn in a fire, a winning lottery ticket worth trillions of dollars. If that's a real ticket, then throwing it in the fire is inestimably incorrect and maximally suboptimal.

That's just Pascal's wager, but there's a reason we know what Pascal's wager is, because it's a good thought experiment.

Moralism follows around the Church like parasitic scavengers following around alpha predators.

 

[Nihilo]

Do you believe in the Creation story, Noah's literal flood and a donkey that spoke?

Faith isn't easy or straight-forward. I merely am acknowledging that.

Why not? I believe Easter.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Nice try. We're talking about your accusing others of not being able to "explain"....when, in fact, the fault lies with you.

It's basically your lack of trust in God...not anything to do with how the Gospel is preached...or "explained" as you put it.

Okay... so... you’re a hot head lately. Sonnet prefaced this thread with his lack of faith... so... you’re only saying this for debates sake...

There comes a time when a person’s search is more important than our debate achievements! Are you attacking Sonnet into the fold?

What good is it to keep on the defensive, when Jesus sought faith from all humanity unto death?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I recognize an attempt to change the subject when I see one.

This thread, as you should know, is about the the Gospel.

No... he’s expressing his doubt...

No, you're actually mocking Faith while mocking the Bible.

No... Sonnet is sharing his heart with us and you are mockinv his heart.

Faith is the most straight-forward thing there is.
It's what men try to add to faith that causes disagreements.

You couldn’t have crafted this last sentence better, as it is 100% Correct.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Do you believe in the Creation story, Noah's literal flood and a donkey that spoke?

Yes... without issue.

Faith isn't easy or straight-forward. I merely am acknowledging that.

No... it’s not. And this life gives us all major trust issues.

The bottom line is in the chair of the matter... you can discuss the chair... measure it, carbon date it... write about it... and take pictures of it...

But... Sonnet... until you sit in it with all your weight... it can’t lift your burden...

Savvy? :e4e:

You have to rest all your weight into the Jesus of the matter... otherwise... you’re spending a lifetime evaluating a chair you never actually sit in...

Relationships take hope, faith and Love... they don’t work if any of those components are missing... you only build trust by “trying”.. and I imagine... that is what this is all headed towards...

Fortunately... Jesus can supply all 3 components...

0Ask and ye shall receive”

 

[Sonnet]

I recognize an attempt to change the subject when I see one.

This thread, as you should know, is about the the Gospel.



No, you're actually mocking Faith while mocking the Bible.

Faith is the most straight-forward thing there is.
It's what men try to add to faith that causes disagreements.

Jesus spoke of Noah - do you believe Him or not - that Noah was a real person who experience the actual flood event?

Where have I mocked scripture?