What is the Gospel?

Sonnet

Sonnet

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Nothing.

Those who genuinely want to believe have been first made so wanting to believe by the quickening of the Holy Spirit, the regeneration of the spiritually dead person to life (Eze. 36:26).

Let me be as plain as I can be:

No person will call upon the name of the Lord until God first efficaciously acts upon that person. Given that God is the one performing the action here, nothing that can prevent said person so acted upon by God from believing. In fact, said person so acted upon by God will not not believe.

AMR
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What part, would you say, an individual plays in determining their own nature before and up to the point of birth? Since the inherited condition means they cannot turn to God and if God chooses less than all then where's the culpability?
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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George Affleck said:
John 3:14-15KJV is not an offer of salvation. It is a statement of fact as is John 3:16KJV.

Those who belong to Jesus will believe and those who believe will not perish.
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Saint John could have used such words as you use to make that apparent but he didn't. He would be guilty of playing fast and loose otherwise.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Danoh said:
You've read past that again.

Consider the following...

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

In the KJV, both uses of the word "spirit" are in the lower case in that passage with good reason.

Because Paul is contrasting outlooks - the world's outlook, mind, or spirit on a thing, and the Spirit's outlook, mind, or spirit on a thing.

And he is also referring to his mind or spirit having had revealed to it The Spirit's mind, or spirit on a thing by the Spirit.

He is not referring to the Corinthians as Believers, rather; to himself.

Where am I getting this from?

From some supposed "Lord spoke to my spirit...?"

Yes, but only in the sense that He now does so through said Word on things that Paul is asserting there was given to his spirit or mind, to speak or write about.

The Apostles were unique in that.

We are not.

All we have is the Scripture that process in them, resulted in.

Or as Peter put that, near the very end of his God-inspired witness...

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, all this remains ever fascinating :)
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I'm not following you Danoh. How does this relate to the distinction that has been made regarding v.14 not referring to the unsaved?
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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Sonnet said:
Under Calvinism, inherited total depravity means no one is able to respond to God and He only chooses certain individuals to regenerate so that they can. Those passed by have no access to eternal life. Calvinists would cite Esau is such an individual.
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Sounds about right to me, and for anyone who grasps Scripture's teachings of the full extent of the fall of Adam and imputation.

Romans 5.
Paul compares the two covenant-heads, Adam and the last Adam (Christ).
He works the parallel pretty thoroughly.
Dead in Adam, alive in Christ. Guilty in Adam, innocent in Christ.

Imputation--everyone loves it in the second instance: Christ obedient for me, and punished for me.
So, why are they so squeamish about being judged guilty on account of their representative, Adam? :idunno:

Is the subject of Original Sin important? Yes.
We are guilty before we inherit anything.
We are guilty after we are conceived in iniquity, inheriting a sinful nature.
And third, we are guilty of all our actual transgressions.

Those that do not grasp the full extent of the fall of Adam assume man's fallen state is not utterly fallen, only wounded. Some "seed" of righteousness (Rome's dogma of prevenient grace trickled down into not a few Protestants) remains such that fallen man possesses the moral ability to choose wisely after all the the wooing and courtship of the Holy Spirit performed for each and every unbeliever equally. Those that are unique enough to discern this will choose wisely, grabbing the life preserver tossed to them. After all, they made something of the grace given to them (the same grace given to all), while their doltish neighbor did not. Good for them! :AMR:

AMR
 
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Sonnet said:
The analogy Jesus chose was that of a genuine offer to the infected and dying Israelites to be healed. It's an offer because it can be refused; action is required - that of looking.
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God sincerely offers salvation to all who believe in Christ. The offer is therefore conditional on faith. The so-called "well meant" offer advocates remove the condition on which God's sincerity is expressed.

The two parts of a covenant are command and promise. The covenant of grace as administered in the preaching of the gospel is believe (command) and be saved (promise). Preaching the gospel to every creature entails the declaration of both the command and the promise. Hence we should be careful to emphasize that all men are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ, and also that God sincerely promises eternal life to all who will believe. The offer is general, indefinite, and conditional enough that it can be made to all men without bringing in the question of whether or not they are elect. At the same time it goes forth on the understanding that only those who are elect will be given the grace to exercise the condition of faith and thereby appropriate the promised blessing.

God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. God has no unfulfilled desires, He will accomplish all that He wills to do. Those who say that there is a desire in God to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.

With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered. But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel.

Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel.
Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel.
Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity per the obligations of the ninth commandment. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose.
Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.

In short, some of God's decrees remain a secret, not all of them; those who are elect and those who are reprobate at the time of the gospel offer is one of those secrets. Nevertheless we depend upon the revelation of God's decrees in the gospel to understand the doctrine of salvation, as well as to be able to discern between those who are saved and those who perish.

Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.

AMR
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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glorydaz

glorydaz

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. God has no unfulfilled desires, He will accomplish all that He wills to do. Those who say that there is a desire in God to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.
AMR
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And yet we see scripture that says God would have all men come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

And this...

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

So, I don't think anyone is saying there is a desire in God to save those who will not believe, but there is a desire in God that all would come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
God sincerely offers salvation to all who believe in Christ. The offer is therefore conditional on faith. The so-called "well meant" offer advocates remove the condition on which God's sincerity is expressed.

The two parts of a covenant are command and promise. The covenant of grace as administered in the preaching of the gospel is believe (command) and be saved (promise). Preaching the gospel to every creature entails the declaration of both the command and the promise. Hence we should be careful to emphasize that all men are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ, and also that God sincerely promises eternal life to all who will believe. The offer is general, indefinite, and conditional enough that it can be made to all men without bringing in the question of whether or not they are elect. At the same time it goes forth on the understanding that only those who are elect will be given the grace to exercise the condition of faith and thereby appropriate the promised blessing.

God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. God has no unfulfilled desires, He will accomplish all that He wills to do. Those who say that there is a desire in God to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.

With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered. But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel.

Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel.
Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel.
Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity per the obligations of the ninth commandment. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose.
Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.

In short, some of God's decrees remain a secret, not all of them; those who are elect and those who are reprobate at the time of the gospel offer is one of those secrets. Nevertheless we depend upon the revelation of God's decrees in the gospel to understand the doctrine of salvation, as well as to be able to discern between those who are saved and those who perish.

Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.

AMR
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Respectfully, none of this deals with Jesus's choice of analogy. Whether the dying Israelites looked or not, the bronze snake was raised for their healing. That makes it an offer. Jesus could have chosen an analogy that aligned with your view but He didn't.

Your first sentence:

God sincerely offers salvation to all who believe in Christ.
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does not fit.
 
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Sonnet said:
So, to be absolutely clear, your:

"We are guilty before we inherit anything.
We are guilty after we are conceived in iniquity, inheriting a sinful nature.
And third, we are guilty of all our actual transgressions."

affirms that we play no part in determining that which we inherit (in terms of our sinful nature)?
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Perhaps you skipped over that third bit quoted above. :idunno:

AMR
 
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Sonnet said:
The analogy Jesus chose was that of a genuine offer to the infected and dying Israelites to be healed. It's an offer because it can be refused; action is required - that of looking.

You gave no justification for your assertion.
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Huh? Connect all the dots versus just extracting these two verses from the entire context. You cannot ignore what Our Lord just said to Nicodemus earlier, properly interpreted here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Your-Savior&p=4848714&viewfull=1#post4848714

John 3:14-15 are the build up to John 3:16, which begins with "For" to establish the causal relationship to what has just come beforehand (these two verses). The fact that it is only in connection with Christ that everlasting life is ever obtained (see verse 15) is clear from this, that it has pleased God to grant this supreme gift only to those who repose their trust in him (verse 16). The lifting up..etc., is akin to making visible to men from every tribe and nation the offer of salvation for those that believe out of all these classes of mankind. This is in harmony with the thought expressed repeatedly in the Fourth Gospel (including this very chapter) to the effect that physical ancestry has nothing to do with entrance into the kingdom of heaven: John 1:12,13; 3:6; 8:31-39.

In both cases (Numbers 21 and John 3) death threatens as a punishment for sin.
b. In both cases it is God himself who, in his sovereign grace, provides a remedy.
c. In both cases this remedy consists of something (or some One) which (who) must be lifted up, in public view.
d. In both cases those who, with a believing heart, look unto that which (or: look unto the One who) is lifted up, are healed.

Though Christ is lifted up in the sight of all, he does not save all. We read, in order that whoever believes {that is the believing ones} may in him have everlasting life. Just as in connection with the serpent of brass the Israelite was healed (for though the serpent had no healing power and was merely a "piece of brass," 2 Kings 18:4, entirely unworthy of veneration and worship, nevertheless, God's blessing was obtained by looking at this serpent), so also in connection with Christ, the great Antitype, believers attain everlasting life.

That you and others think "world" here means each and every person compounds the error of your (and their) other posts implying a hypothetical universalism.

AMR
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Huh? Connect all the dots versus just extracting these two verses from the entire context. You cannot ignore what Our Lord just said to Nicodemus earlier, properly interpreted here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Your-Savior&p=4848714&viewfull=1#post4848714

John 3:14-15 are the build up to John 3:16, which begins with "For" to establish the causal relationship to what has just come beforehand (these two verses). The fact that it is only in connection with Christ that everlasting life is ever obtained (see verse 15) is clear from this, that it has pleased God to grant this supreme gift only to those who repose their trust in him (verse 16). The lifting up..etc., is akin to making visible to men from every tribe and nation the offer of salvation for those that believe out of all these classes of mankind. This is in harmony with the thought expressed repeatedly in the Fourth Gospel (including this very chapter) to the effect that physical ancestry has nothing to do with entrance into the kingdom of heaven: John 1:12,13; 3:6; 8:31-39.

In both cases (Numbers 21 and John 3) death threatens as a punishment for sin.
b. In both cases it is God himself who, in his sovereign grace, provides a remedy.
c. In both cases this remedy consists of something (or some One) which (who) must be lifted up, in public view.
d. In both cases those who, with a believing heart, look unto that which (or: look unto the One who) is lifted up, are healed.

Though Christ is lifted up in the sight of all, he does not save all. We read, in order that whoever believes {that is the believing ones} may in him have everlasting life. Just as in connection with the serpent of brass the Israelite was healed (for though the serpent had no healing power and was merely a "piece of brass," 2 Kings 18:4, entirely unworthy of veneration and worship, nevertheless, God's blessing was obtained by looking at this serpent), so also in connection with Christ, the great Antitype, believers attain everlasting life.

That you and others think "world" here means each and every person compounds the error of your (and their) other posts implying a hypothetical universalism.

AMR
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Sorry, where in John 3 does Jesus say what you seem to be implying - that of selective regeneration enabling faith? Certainly, Jesus is telling Nicodemus about being born again.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Huh? Connect all the dots versus just extracting these two verses from the entire context. You cannot ignore what Our Lord just said to Nicodemus earlier, properly interpreted here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Your-Savior&p=4848714&viewfull=1#post4848714

John 3:14-15 are the build up to John 3:16, which begins with "For" to establish the causal relationship to what has just come beforehand (these two verses). The fact that it is only in connection with Christ that everlasting life is ever obtained (see verse 15) is clear from this, that it has pleased God to grant this supreme gift only to those who repose their trust in him (verse 16). The lifting up..etc., is akin to making visible to men from every tribe and nation the offer of salvation for those that believe out of all these classes of mankind. This is in harmony with the thought expressed repeatedly in the Fourth Gospel (including this very chapter) to the effect that physical ancestry has nothing to do with entrance into the kingdom of heaven: John 1:12,13; 3:6; 8:31-39.

In both cases (Numbers 21 and John 3) death threatens as a punishment for sin.
b. In both cases it is God himself who, in his sovereign grace, provides a remedy.
c. In both cases this remedy consists of something (or some One) which (who) must be lifted up, in public view.
d. In both cases those who, with a believing heart, look unto that which (or: look unto the One who) is lifted up, are healed.

Though Christ is lifted up in the sight of all, he does not save all. We read, in order that whoever believes {that is the believing ones} may in him have everlasting life. Just as in connection with the serpent of brass the Israelite was healed (for though the serpent had no healing power and was merely a "piece of brass," 2 Kings 18:4, entirely unworthy of veneration and worship, nevertheless, God's blessing was obtained by looking at this serpent), so also in connection with Christ, the great Antitype, believers attain everlasting life.

That you and others think "world" here means each and every person compounds the error of your (and their) other posts implying a hypothetical universalism.

AMR
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I just wonder AMR - isn't this a tacit admission that a preacher primarily using vv.14-16 for his Gospel would be misunderstood by his audience? I can't imagine anyone thinking that genuine salvation wasn't being offered.
 
George Affleck

George Affleck

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It appears that, with every passing post, Sonnet, a self-confessed unbeliever, continues to prove a total inability to come to a saving knowledge of Christ without the intervention of God.
 
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Sonnet said:
Saint John could have used such words as you use to make that apparent but he didn't. He would be guilty of playing fast and loose otherwise.
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First, these are not Saint John's words. These are Jesus' words, faithfully quoted by one inspired by God to record His words.

Second, the words cannot, by any stretch, be anything other than, first and foremost, a statement of fact. Plain sentence structure is learned in primary school and is plain on its own. The plain meaning is already clear and John does not record Jesus as having said; 'If you will dig deep inside yourselves and come up with a belief strong enough I will reward your belief by...etc.'. In fact, the Bible never even hints at us having a residual or latent faith that we can draw upon from within ourselves. It actually confirms the opposite.

Third, you are not consistent with the strict line of reasoning you are taking with John 3:14-15KJV. In order to draw such a close comparison you must also explain how Jesus can compare Himself to a fiery serpent and explain why only some were healed while others died before the serpent appeared. Hebrews 11 is replete with examples of those who, prior to Jesus being lifted up, exhibited the same faith that in Eph 2:8KJV is called a gift. Your conclusion is what comes of reading too much into an analogy.

Please provide theoretical words that you think John could have used to explain that Jesus was making a statement of fact more than what he did?
 
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