What is the Gospel?

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blackbirdking

New member
Derf said:
Sorry about the excessive use of emphatic quotes.

Isn't "bad" the things men do to deserve hell? And isn't it "good" when "bad" is punished? Thus, men going to hell is "good", because "bad" is punished.

Isn't God's purpose (and Jesus' prayer) about "bad" being left in obscurity--no longer a feature of the world, just like in heaven?
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So there really is no bad. Much ado about nothing. A man lives his life, dies, and in the end it's all good. That's why you said,

Derf said:
... If Jesus' death being for you means that you are saved, but the bible clearly indicates that not all are saved, what can we say, but that Jesus' death was NOT for all?
Personally, I think He did die for all, but only some take advantage of it.
The end result is the same--those that do not believe are not benefited by His death, whatever the reason. What I don't understand is why Christians feel the need to argue about it so much. not as immediately as we might like to see. And isn't that just one more time-oriented miracle?
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Back to the original point:
blackbirdking said:
The end result the same? How so?
It's not about man.
It's about the character of God.
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If Christ did not die for every man, to make it possible for every man to "do" something different than "the things men do to deserve hell", it says something about the character of God. God created men who had no chance of not going to hell.

If Christ died for every man, so each man can stop doing "the things men do to deserve hell", it says something different about the character of God.

What a man believes God has done, influences what a man believes about God. You can take it from there...

Maybe that's not how you meant it...
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I wondered which way you would go.

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] and I may disagree a bit on the answer to this, but I think God desires to save some, and He is limited in His ability to do so. Why? because He chose to limit Himself in this way in order to achieve the goal mentioned above--that His will is done on earth as it is in heaven. Thus, He would like to save everybody, but not everybody will allow themselves to be "saved", since "saved" seems to include being entirely submissive to His will, eventually. Unsubmissive people cannot be saved, as that would allow sin in God's presence.
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Seems a bit contradictory; "...He chose to limit Himself in this way in order to achieve the goal mentioned above--that His will is done on earth..."; or you're rationalizing around Calvinism, or maybe it's definition of terms.

I disagree with what you imply and it goes back to what you said about why men go to hell.
It shows in what you say here.
Where is submission required in the 'Gospel'? What is the first and greatest commandment?


There is something missing in what you're saying.

Yes, this definitely describes the character of God. And it shows the conundrum of omnipotence and free will.
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And I think this is what it is. God didn't have to limit Himself. It's about love and it goes back to what you believe about men being saved. The requirement of God for man's salvation is not man striving to do something. The first and greatest commandment is love. You can't force a man to love. A man cannot make himself love. It must be free or it's not love; God wants man to love Him, so by definition, man's will is free. When a man loves God, submission is not an issue. A man loves what he thinks is good; therefore, what a man believes God is, directly impacts his love for God.


I feel that you're making God out to be like a mechanical zombie, or something just out there, rather than a person, a real live thinking being, one capable of actually loving. He is not forced to love us, else it wouldn't be love. He really loves me, and you, and the whole 'damn' world; therefore, Jesus died for every man, so every man could learn of Him, and love Him. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It is not good that the wicked die. That's why the death of Christ.


Bad isn't "the things men do to deserve hell", bad is choosing hell over the love of God; therefore , telling a man that Christ died for him, is of utmost importance.

Again, all men love that which they believe to be good; therefore, each man must know that Christ died for him. Christ is God's goodness, good news, gospel, being made known to man.

Thus:
Derf said:
... If Jesus' death being for you means that you are saved, but the bible clearly indicates that not all are saved, what can we say, but that Jesus' death was NOT for all?
Personally, I think He did die for all, but only some take advantage of it.
The end result is the same--those that do not believe are not benefited by His death, whatever the reason. What I don't understand is why Christians feel the need to argue about it so much. not as immediately as we might like to see. And isn't that just one more time-oriented miracle?
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blackbirdking said:
The end result the same? How so?
It's not about man.
It's about the character of God.
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The end result is not the same.
 
B

blackbirdking

New member
Nihilo said:
That which those validly authorized to teach Christian morals teach is good. The bishops.
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Nihilo said:
No, I answered you the first time around. You just didn't like the answer.
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Sorry, didn't realize that 'The bishops' were the biblical definition of good. That's great because as long as I believe Easter I can molest children, and...; thanks for your wonderful insight into the Biblical definition of good.
 
Nihilo

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Nihilo

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Derf said:
We protestants were saved from indulgences 500 years ago. :)
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That was a mess, abuse.

Numbers 32:23 (KJV) "...be sure your sin will find you out."

We all know that we will reap the temporal penalties for our sins.

When we don't, when we are saved from them by hook or by crook, that's an indulgence, whether it's formally granted by the Church, or by God on high.

You don't want to be saved from indulgences.
 
Right Divider

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Nihilo said:
That was a mess, abuse.

Numbers 32:23 (KJV) "...be sure your sin will find you out."

We all know that we will reap the temporal penalties for our sins.

When we don't, when we are saved from them by hook or by crook, that's an indulgence, whether it's formally granted by the Church, or by God on high.

You don't want to be saved from indulgences.
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:juggle::dizzy::surf::down:
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Nihilo said:
That was a mess, abuse.

Numbers 32:23 (KJV) "...be sure your sin will find you out."

We all know that we will reap the temporal penalties for our sins.

When we don't, when we are saved from them by hook or by crook, that's an indulgence, whether it's formally granted by the Church, or by God on high.

You don't want to be saved from indulgences.
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True.

However the Catholic church's indulgences are a detestable attempt to emulate God.

Isaiah 14:14

14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
I asked Jacob to clarify the 'our' of his first sentence by highlighting it. His response was '...everyone.'

I assume he would preach such a Gospel to '....everyone.'

You mention 'faith' for what reason?
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And then he stipulated. You hate those stipulations, don't you? :think:

For what reason? Paul's Gospel demands it.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
I never suggested so.



Paul also preached belief in the resurrection. Why preach this to anyone and everyone if Jesus did not die for anyone and everyone? If He didn't die for you then His resurrection has no relevance whatsoever to your life.

You conflate justification with Christ's atonement, but Jesus's atonement is just as the OT day of atonement (Hebrews 9-10) where:

Leviticus 16:16
In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been.

yet:

Leviticus 23:29-30
Those who do not deny themselves on that day must be cut off from their people. I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day.

Atonement was made regardless. It's the same model as Numbers 21:8-9.
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So, the Passover is the picture. The death angel would pass over the houses which applied the blood to the door post. Those that failed to apply the blood to the doorpost DIED. The blood was only effectual for those who applied the blood to the doorpost.

Now, I'm not going to tell the people, "Don't worry, the blood covers you." No, I'll tell the people, "The blood cover you when you apply it to your doorpost."


That is what Paul preaches....salvation by grace through faith.

No wonder you started this thread. You're just plain too stubborn to hear the Gospel when it's preached. :nono:
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
glorydaz said:
So, the Passover is the picture. The death angel would pass over the houses which applied the blood to the door post. Those that failed to apply the blood to the doorpost DIED. The blood was only effectual for those who applied the blood to the doorpost.

Now, I'm not going to tell the people, "Don't worry, the blood covers you." No, I'll tell the people, "The blood cover you when you apply it to your doorpost."


That is what Paul preaches....salvation by grace through faith.

No wonder you started this thread. You're just plain too stubborn to hear the Gospel when it's preached. :nono:
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Paul calls 1 Corinthians 15:3ff the Gospel - which you are forced to acknowledge. You can't say it isn't the Gospel and you can't say it's a Gospel for believers only otherwise you end up with two Gospels.
No Israelite was denied access to the blood of the Passover lamb. It was shed for all without exception.

If you agree that it is wrong to preach 'Christ died for our sins' to unbelievers, why stop there?
No shedding of blood for all, then no resurrection for all. Paul preached belief in the resurrection indiscriminately because he understood it had relevance for all...because Christ died for all as scripture explicitly says.

There is not one scripture that explicitly says otherwise.
 
Jacob

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Shalom.

To include yourself in the our of those who are saved likely or does require a correct understanding of the gospel. That salvation is by grace through faith is true. Without Jesus no one can be saved.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
glorydaz said:
So, the Passover is the picture. The death angel would pass over the houses which applied the blood to the door post. Those that failed to apply the blood to the doorpost DIED. The blood was only effectual for those who applied the blood to the doorpost.

Now, I'm not going to tell the people, "Don't worry, the blood covers you." No, I'll tell the people, "The blood cover you when you apply it to your doorpost."


That is what Paul preaches....salvation by grace through faith.

No wonder you started this thread. You're just plain too stubborn to hear the Gospel when it's preached. :nono:
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For whom did Christ die GD?
Why have you changed GD?
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
If you agree that it is wrong to preach 'Christ died for our sins' to unbelievers, why stop there?
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I prefer to preach what Paul says to preach. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Acts 16:31 That's what I tell unbelievers.

Paul says, "Blessed are THEY whose iniquities are forgiven..." That's why I tell unbelievers they should believe. I don't lie and tell them their sins are forgiven and they will be blessed whether they believe or not.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.​

I tell them, "All that believe" are forgiven of sins and justified...

Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

I tell them Jesus died so all could have access to God's Grace and forgiveness of sin. Romans 5:2

If YOU believe in the death, burial and resurrection of the LORD Jesus Christ, you, too will be justified and have your sins forgiven. You are without excuse, and quibbling about what is required to have your sins forgiven isn't getting you anywhere.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Sonnet said:
For whom did Christ die GD?
Why have you changed GD?
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What in God's name are you reading into that post?

Your attempt to sow discord has been duly noted.

I have always disagreed with AMR on certain things. That there is a specific number of people who are saved is one of them. I say all those who believe are saved, and all those who believe are forgiven of sin.

I'm beginning to think it's your reading comprehension that is faulty. :think:
 
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