What is the Gospel?

[Lon]

If God did this, which you say He did, it says something about God's character.
If God did this, it is good that men go to hell.

If He did this, it is good that men go to hell, and it is good that men go to heaven; therefore, bad is left in obscurity.

Could you explain what bad is?

Yes, by analogy: Henry Ford made cars. It was inevitable that men would die in car accidents. Ford did NOT make cars FOR car accidents. Nobody blames Henry Ford. We are 'thankful' to Henry Ford. He is NOT blamable for car accidents. People who drive, are guilty of car accidents. "Bad" and "Evil" is the 'absence of God and God's intentions.' "Bad" is not killing people. Police are not bad when they have to do this (most of the time). God is the OWNER of us all. You nor I 'get' to qualify what is good or bad that He may do with us as HIS. "Bad" is thinking we are independent and 'get' to rule over what is bad or good. :nono: The Bible DOES try to convey to us a bit of what is good and bad so we can internalize it correctly but Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:12 - we see just a little bit. We DO know God is light (and love) and in Him is NO darkness at all. What I used to do, and I think you still do, is weigh that in your own mind BUT, you and I have darkness and as Derf has said, our sense of right and wrong carries 'darkness.' I realize too, as a people, we often buy into group-think Politically correct 'right and wrong.' We really have to get past saying our collective ideals, ARE the ideals. They are not. Only God is good. If we EVER start questioning God's goodness, we are looking in the wrong direction, it has to be introspection.

So you believe that God is limited in His ability to save; He desires to, but is incapable.

No, that He is capable, but has chosen a specific way. Derf, answered much of your post here as well, so hopefully you'll have a good holistic response (Derf is not a Calvinist).

A miracle that some are saved, but the others God is incapable of saving?
Something doesn't add up.
Again, this describes the character of God.

I read it more than once and answered it yesterday.

Don't take this wrong, but you may be more of a Calvinist than you realize. I appreciate that. It is my opinion, you are not so much wrestling with me on this, but against the scriptures as they are written. Always a good thing.

Nothing is impossible for God, but He has chosen the limitation. Derf also addressed this in his post. I am certain that the reason is to make and mold a people uniquely for Himself and that as we go through this, we are being recreated for Him. I am equally convinced, from scripture, that men who reject the Son are already condemned. John 3:18

 

[Sonnet]

Sonnet, I rejoined all of your answers, as I wanted to respond to all of them,
and didn't want to lose any, at least not yet. If you'd rather keep them separated, I can abide by it next time.

Derf

Either is fine m8.

My point was that the serpent was NOT for everybody--it was only for the sick.

Only those Jesus considers are relevant since this is the way analogies work isn't it? Jesus limits the scope to sick Israelites; we are not to consider anyone else.

That microcosm represents the entire world of sinners in His analogy.

When you say "not able to look", are you suggesting that some were blind, or bedridden, and thus didn't have the ability or visual access?

I would assume that anyone without the necessary physical ability to do as asked would have been offered a suitable alternative.

I'm not getting your Arminian comment. I tend to believe that the traditional Arminian viewpoint is wrong for that very reason (God knowing counterfactuals), but what type of control do you think God has lost in your scenario?

Genuine ability to chose - ie where the outcome isn't predetermined - imperils God sovereignty, I would say. The Arminian cannot explain this. God must remain in control else the final outcome could not be guaranteed.

Depends on what the purpose of the creation is, I suppose. Just like if I have a train set I want to construct, in order to enjoy the sight and sound effects, despite the surety that the set will do exactly what I want it to do. Personally, I don't think that was the purpose of God's creation, but it might be the purpose of SOME of God's creation, like "heaven", where God's will is done, according to the Lord's Prayer.

I can see what you're saying. But what scattered them if not the language barrier?

Innate pride causing hostility? We humans do seem to behave in such a way don't we?

I don't believe anyone believes 100% the same in every detail. Isn't that what your thread is about? The detail we don't agree on is "how it works". The detail we do agree on is "that it works". If you don't agree on the second, the first is irrelevant. But if you don't agree on the first, that's ok--the second is still the important part.

The thread is specifically about the Gospel - but Jesus calls us to believe in Him period.

But in terms of whether anyone has enough faith with no doubts? Is there anyone like that? My doubts come and go, but I'm pretty sure the source of the bible, the source of the salvation, the source of creation is capable enough to pull off what He says, even if I don't understand it all. If He's not, then nobody is.

So I am like you only my doubts are weightier? Do you ever suddenly consider that it's all false? Even just for a moment?

 

[Sonnet]

So you take a teaching text, without any "ours" in it hoping to prove something. What you've proven is that Paul preaches salvation and justification by faith. Believing is an absolute requirement of salvation (which, by the way, includes forgiveness of sin even though it isn't mentioned in this text).

Hence, the justification of faith. He preached it everywhere. That's his gospel. That's what I've been telling you. The Gospel isn't preached without the justification of faith....which is why Paul reminds the Corinthians of what he has been preaching.

1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:

The point was that this does prove that Paul's letters, though often addressed specifically - do sometimes include others to be the intended recipients of his message.

 

[Derf]

Only those Jesus considers are relevant since this is the way analogies work isn't it? Jesus limits the scope to sick Israelites; we are not to consider anyone else.

That microcosm represents the entire world of sinners in His analogy.


I would assume that anyone without the necessary physical ability to do as asked would have been offered a suitable alternative.

Ok on all the above. That last one, specifically, is one we take for granted based on our understanding of God's character and the nature of grace (that it isn't our ability to do something that saves us, but His), even if not explicit--we just don't know about those circumstances. Maybe there were no israelites in that condition at the time--after all, they were all wandering in the desert for 40 years, and their shoes weren't wearing out.

Is the same true for faith as well? In other words, those that couldn't move to go see the snake, or had no sight to see the snake would still be saved from the poison by the desire to obey, presumably, as evidenced by, perhaps, their efforts to get to the place where they could, right? So a blind man might ask people to guide him to the snake and even point his face toward it, and an invalid might asked to be carried.

Genuine ability to chose - ie where the outcome isn't predetermined - imperils God sovereignty, I would say. The Arminian cannot explain this. God must remain in control else the final outcome could not be guaranteed.

I guess it depends on how you define "sovereignty". I've offered this in other threads, but it's worth the re-typing, I hope. I'd like to propose that God's sovereignty as exercised over humans is not unlike human kings' sovereignty. They have several options for enforcing their wills on "unbelieving" subjects. ("Unbelieving" I'll define here as not really thinking they have to obey the king--they don't believe he has the power to make them obey, or they just don't want to.) They can

1. punish
2. imprison
3. banish
4. execute

A human king can't "twiddle" with a subject's brain to make them "believe" that the king really does make the rules. He has to show his subjects his power or his goodness to convince them. If the goodness exhibition doesn't work, the power exhibition begins, in some order like the list above.

I'd suggest that while God can "twiddle" as described, He also desires true obedience/relationship/worship (English kings were into "worship", just as others have been throughout time, I suppose, hence the terms: "Your honor", "your worshipfulness", "your majesty", "your eminence"), which is not achieved by forcing one to bow. Neither is it a lasting relationship if the subject merely bows as a show until a better time occurs to break free from the king's subjection.

Thus He might use those methods or threats as a way to tell the subject the true result of disobeying, even while not wanting to have to use such methods (much like a parent disciplining a child) at all, or at least not for long.

Innate pride causing hostility? We humans do seem to behave in such a way don't we?

Indeed! So you can at least envision a non-fairy-tale-like Tower of Babel story, right?

The thread is specifically about the Gospel - but Jesus calls us to believe in Him period.

I offered a different definition of "believe" above. Do you think it applies here?

Yet the difference between belief in "the gospel" and belief in "Jesus" is not so hard to bridge, once mercy is brought into the picture. If Jesus is the direct descendant of God (which is how kings are usually determined), and He was sent to take our punishment in a combined stroke of justice and mercy, then belief in Him IS belief in the good news.

So I am like you only my doubts are weightier? Do you ever suddenly consider that it's all false? Even just for a moment?

Sure, but once I consider it, I have to join the apostle Peter in saying, "Where else can we go? Only You have the words of eternal life." (Jhn 6:68)

Which he immediately followed with: [Jhn 6:69] And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You've told me straight. Ta.

34When Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely, He said, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any further.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Sure, but once I consider it, I have to join the apostle Peter in saying, "Where else can we go? Only You have the words of eternal life." (Jhn 6:68)

Which he immediately followed with: [Jhn 6:69] And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

:cheers:

 

[glorydaz]

1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:

The point was that this does prove that Paul's letters, though often addressed specifically - do sometimes include others to be the intended recipients of his message.

That doesn't prove anything. You have to read what Paul says in context. This is very simple.

 

[Jacob]

Shalom.

The gospel is that Christ Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead defeating death with the promise of the resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked for us. By faith in His name we have salvation, the forgiveness of our sins and the saving of our souls.

The details of this may need refined, adjusted, or corrected.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Sonnet]

That doesn't prove anything. You have to read what Paul says in context. This is very simple.

It establishes a specific example of Paul addressing those other than the addressees of his letter.

It is a fact that Paul calls 1 Corinthians 15:3ff the Gospel and affirms that he preaches it. Nowhere does he proscribe telling unbelievers that Christ died for their sins.

 

[Sonnet]

Shalom.

The gospel is that Christ Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead defeating death with the promise of the resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked for us. By faith in His name we have salvation, the forgiveness of our sins and the saving of our souls.

The details of this may need refined, adjusted, or corrected.

Shalom.

Jacob

Thanks. Do you include everyone in 'our'?

 

[glorydaz]

It establishes a specific example of Paul addressing those other than the addressees of his letter.

It is a fact that Paul calls 1 Corinthians 15:3ff the Gospel and affirms that he preaches it. Nowhere does he proscribe telling unbelievers that Christ died for their sins.

He does give the stipulation that one must believe....justification by faith IS THE GOSPEL THAT PAUL PREACHED.

You can't change his Gospel to suit your beliefs. I don't care how much twisting you do.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks. Do you include everyone in 'our'?

He even says "By faith in His name we have salvation, the forgiveness of sins...."

A self proclaimed Jew even knows what you refuse to admit. :rotfl:

 

[Jacob]

Thanks. Do you include everyone in 'our'?

Shalom.

Believers or Jews, which believers may include Christians. Also, everyone.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Sonnet]

He does give the stipulation that one must believe....justification by faith IS THE GOSPEL THAT PAUL PREACHED.

You can't change his Gospel to suit your beliefs. I don't care how much twisting you do.

I'm unclear as to why this is relevant. Paul states that vv.3ff are the Gospel. Of course it requires belief.

How am I 'twisting' - you are forced to admit that those verses are the Gospel.
Forced GD.

 

[Sonnet]

He even says "By faith in His name we have salvation, the forgiveness of sins...."

A self proclaimed Jew even knows what you refuse to admit. :rotfl:

Yet he affirms 'our' is everyone.

 

[Jacob]

It is in Him that we have and find salvation. If you do not have salvation, you can find it in Him.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm unclear as to why this is relevant. Paul states that vv.3ff are the Gospel. Of course it requires belief.

How am I 'twisting' - you are forced to admit that those verses are the Gospel.
Forced GD.

Ha. What kind of an idiot do you think I am?

Paul never preached a Gospel that did not include justification by faith. THAT is the Gospel. You see the word "believed" there, but you reject it..."unless ye have believed in vain." You reject it because you ignore the fact that Paul is reminding them of what he HAD PREACHED BEFORE...."the gospel which I preached unto you", which is....

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

Paul's Gospel isn't his Gospel without justification by FAITH.

Faith is believing for forgiveness of sins.

You are simply lying about Paul's Gospel. But, I don't mind repeating myself. The Gospel is preached in spite of your best efforts.

 

[glorydaz]

Yet he affirms 'our' is everyone.

He stipulated it was by faith. Just as Paul does.

 

[Sonnet]

He stipulated it was by faith. Just as Paul does.

I asked Jacob to clarify the 'our' of his first sentence by highlighting it. His response was '...everyone.'

I assume he would preach such a Gospel to '....everyone.'

You mention 'faith' for what reason?

Shalom.

The gospel is that Christ Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead defeating death with the promise of the resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked for us. By faith in His name we have salvation, the forgiveness of our sins and the saving of our souls.

The details of this may need refined, adjusted, or corrected.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Sonnet]

Ha. What kind of an idiot do you think I am?

I never suggested so.

Paul never preached a Gospel that did not include justification by faith. THAT is the Gospel. You see the word "believed" there, but you reject it..."unless ye have believed in vain." You reject it because you ignore the fact that Paul is reminding them of what he HAD PREACHED BEFORE...."the gospel which I preached unto you", which is....

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

Paul's Gospel isn't his Gospel without justification by FAITH.

Faith is believing for forgiveness of sins.

You are simply lying about Paul's Gospel. But, I don't mind repeating myself. The Gospel is preached in spite of your best efforts.

Paul also preached belief in the resurrection. Why preach this to anyone and everyone if Jesus did not die for anyone and everyone? If He didn't die for you then His resurrection has no relevance whatsoever to your life.

You conflate justification with Christ's atonement, but Jesus's atonement is just as the OT day of atonement (Hebrews 9-10) where:

Leviticus 16:16
In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been.

yet:

Leviticus 23:29-30
Those who do not deny themselves on that day must be cut off from their people. I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day.

Atonement was made regardless. It's the same model as Numbers 21:8-9.