ECT What is Predestination?

[Jerry Shugart]

I have a seminary degree with 2 semesters of Greek and 1 semester of Greek exegesis.

Good!

Then I am sure that you will understand this about the subject of this thread.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

 

[Dialogos]

Good!

Then I am sure that you will understand this about the subject of this thread.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Sure, οτι is a subordinating conjunction and means "because" or "since."

No argument here.

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:

No argument here either.

Now, my question to you is, "when did God call them according to His purpose?"

Did God call them after they were already saved?

If so then what is God calling them to, specifically? According to your ideas, God is calling the already saved to faith in Christ?

Or is Paul talking about God's call for them to be saved?

The context necessitates the later as it describes perfectly the order in which The Lord saves His people.

First, God foreknows them in the sense of having a relationship with them beforehand. Then, God predestines them, marks them out from among the rest of mankind to be conformed to the image of His Son. Thirdly, God calls those so predestined to faith in Christ. They respond in faith and God justifies them. God finishes the work He began in them and glorifies them on the day when His Son returns.

According to your ideas, God foreknows them once they are already saved (which really negates the "fore" part of foreknowledge), predestines them after they are saved (which negates the "pre" part of predestination), calls the already saved to faith in Christ (when the bible is clear that the belief is a necessary condition for salvation) , justifies the already saved (despite the fact that justification occurs at the moment of salvation according to Romans 10:10) and then glorifies the predestined at Christ's return (which is really the only part of the chain you have right).

 

[StanJ]

I did.
What difference does that make?

Not quite, and if you won't admit to how it does then nothing I say will change your mind.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No argument here either.

So you agree with what I said here:

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body.​

So you can see that Romans 8:28-29 is not speaking of any unsaved person being predestined to salvation.

According to your ideas, God is calling the already saved to faith in Christ?

That is not right. Paul uses the words "the called" at Romans 8:28 to described those who are already saved. And who can deny that the saved have been called by the gospel?

The context necessitates the later as it describes perfectly the order in which The Lord saves His people.

That is wrong. Let us look at the verse:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

It has already been established that the part in "bold" here refers to the saved, because it is the saved who are predestined to put on a glorious body like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

And it is a fact that the saved were called by the gospel and those called and predestined were also justified and glorified.

So there is nothing at Romans 8:30 that contradicts what I said here:

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body.​

And you even said that you agree with that.

 

[Dialogos]

Not quite,

Stan, the explanation you are seeking has been given to you at least three times now. I'll quote it again so please, please, please pay attention.

:readthis:

If you had even the equivalent of a first semester Greek student you would realize that προγινώσκοντές is the present, active, nom. masc. plural participle of the Greek word προγινωσκω and προέγνω is the aorist, active, indicative 3rd person singular of the same word: προγινωσκω.

προγινώσκοντές and προέγνω are different forms of the same greek word!, namely προγινωσκω.

Lets stop here.

Yes you understand this or no you don't, which is it?

It wouldn't matter if I was a tenured Greek professor at your favorite seminary or a first year Greek student squeaking by. You either understand what I wrote or you don't.

I'm guessing, you don't.

 

[Dialogos]

So you agree with what I said here:

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body.​

Yes, I agree.

So you can see that Romans 8:28-29 is not speaking of any unsaved person being predestined to salvation.

No. You made an invalid inference here Jerry.

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. No, that does not mean that predestination somehow means postdestination as your interpretation necessitates. All things work for good for believers precisely because God foreknew them and predestined them to conformity with the image of His Son. According to your ideas, God didn't foreknow or predestine anyone!

Which is probably why you didn't directly answer the question I asked in my last response to you.

when did God call them according to His purpose?"

The quandry is that you betray that you know the right answer when you say the following:

And it is a fact that the saved were called by the gospel and those called and predestined were also justified and glorified.

You correctly realize that the calling Paul is speaking of is being called by the gospel. You refuse to allow the implications of that to correct your understanding of Romans 8:30 because the text is clear that "calling" does not precede predestination, but rather follows after predestination.

According to your ideas the order in which Paul presented Romans 8:29-30 are irrelevant because your theology on this matter places thier being called by the gospel before God's predestination of them to conformity to the image of Christ. Your ideas have God predestining the called rather than God calling the predestined (the later being the correct order of the text).

That is not right. Paul uses the words "the called" at Romans 8:28 to described those who are already saved. And who can deny that the saved have been called by the gospel?

Nobody, but you have a silly understanding of calling here.

If you are talking on the phone with your cousin, it is perfectly accurate to say that your cousin "called" you. But its ridiculous to say that your cousin "called" you because you are talking on the phone. In fact, the reverse is true, the reason you are talking on the phone is because your cousin "called" you. Calling precedes answering.

The same is true here. Paul refers to the saved as those who are "called." Of course he does! The saved are the ones who answered God's calling. But its just as silly to conclude that the saved were called by the gospel because they were saved or after they were saved, its abundantly clear that they were called by the gospel before they were saved and they were saved because they answered the gospel's call.

So lets look at the verse as you suggest:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

Great.

Now, a simple question. Does "predestination" come before or after "calling" in this passage?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Let us examine your words.

Here the only possible antecedent of the pronoun "them" is the saved (those who love God). So by your own words we can understand that it is the saved who are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus--"predestined them."

And of course earlier you agreed with me when I said this:

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body.​

But now when you realize the implication of that you want to argue againt what I said. Now you will have to argue against what you yourself said here:

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

This passage which we are discussing is not speaking of the unsaved being predestined to salvation.

Now, a simple question. Does "predestination" come before or after "calling" in this passage?

I have already explained how that passage fits perfectly with what I said about the previous two verses and you had no objections to what I said. You just assume that passage is speaking of a chronological order.

Now go back and attempt to prove that I made an error when I said how that verse fits perfectly with the idea that it is the saved who are predestined.

 

[Dialogos]

Let us examine your words.

Here the only possible antecedent of the pronoun "them" is the saved (those who love God). So by your own words we can understand that it is the saved who are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus--"predestined them."

Sure, lets... But as the author, I pretty much reserve the right to tell you what I meant by what I said...

If you are hoping to take what I said and twist it, you will be disappointed.

And of course earlier you agreed with me when I said this:

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body.​

Right.

But now when you realize the implication of that you want to argue against what I said.

No.

Again, you are making an illogical inference. You assume that because God predestines the saved to be conformed to the image of His son that God predestined them after they have become saved.


:nono:

Wrong.

And in fact, it makes the concept of predestination meaningless.

You need to refresh your memory as to what προοριζω means and how Paul uses the term.

It means to determine beforehand and the bible always uses it to means something that God did before the world began.

You have to argue that Romans 8:29-30 is the exception to rule.

Second, as I pointed out, the order in which Paul lists those attributes (foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified) all make sense sequentially, but you refuse to see them sequentially in order to salvage your theology. This is clear when you say:

I have already explained how that passage fits perfectly with what I said about the previous two verses and you had no objections to what I said. You just assume that passage is speaking of a chronological order.

Jerry, the fact that you have to rip one element out of sequence in order to prop up your ideas is evidence of your eisegesis.

There are two possibilities.

You are right and Paul just happened to throw calling in there out of sequence or I am right and the sequence Paul placed these events in are precisely ordered.

Given that the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, which one sounds more logical to you?

Thirdly, there is nothing contradictory in what I said.

Paul is talking about saved people and telling them that they are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

My, as of yet, unanswered question is "when did God predestine them to be conformed to the image of His Son?"

I gave you a perfectly cogent illustration and you ignored it.

But I shouldn't really have to do that anyway.

Context makes it clear that God didn't call them and then postdestine them to be conformed to the image of His Son. God Predestined them and then called, justified and glorified.

Simple.

All you have to do is trust the order the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put them in.

Why won't you do that, Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sure, lets... But as the author, I pretty much reserve the right to tell you what I meant by what I said...

If you are hoping to take what I said and twist it, you will be disappointed.

Again, here is what you said:

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

What is the antecedent to the word "them" in the phrase "predestined THEM"?

Again, you are making an illogical inference. You assume that because God predestines the saved to be conformed to the image of His son that God predestined them after they have become saved.

I am not assuming anything. After all verse 29 is telling us how things word together for good to those already SAVED! It is not telling us how things work together for those not yet saved.

And here Paul tells us how all things work together for good to them who are saved:

"Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:29; DBY).​

According to your ideas this is giving the reason why all things work together for the unsaved. But that is not what Paul said. Instead, he was telling us how all things work together for good for the saved.

The subject who will be predestined is never the "unsaved" but instead the "saved" but you change the subject of who is predestined to the "unsaved."

And in fact, it makes the concept of predestination meaningless.

You need to refresh your memory as to what προοριζω means and how Paul uses the term.

It means to determine beforehand and the bible always uses it to means something that God did before the world began.

Yes, the word translated "predestined" means to determine beforehand. According to you ideas it is not possible that the LORD determined from before the foundation of the world that the saved would be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus.

Where is your proof of that?

You have to argue that Romans 8:29-30 is the exception to rule.

Again, where is your proof that the LORD could not determine before the foundation of the world that the saved will be made in the image of the Lord Jesus at the time when they will be caught up?

Jerry, the fact that you have to rip one element out of sequence in order to prop up your ideas is evidence of your eisegesis.

Of course I already answered verse 30 and once again you did not even attempt to prove what I said about that is in error. But you continue as if you did address it. if I am in error then prove that I am in error.

Why do you continue to refuse to answer what I said about what is written at verse 30? Obviously it is because you cannot prove anything which I said is in error.

 

[Dialogos]

Again, here is what you said:

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

What is the antecedent to the word "them" in the phrase "predestined THEM"?

The ones who love God, who are called according to His purpose.

That's the "them" that I am talking about because that's the "them" that Paul is talking about.

I am not assuming anything. After all verse 29 is telling us how things word together for good to those already SAVED!

Yes, and they got saved by being called according to His purpose. That part is important Jerry. You don't get to skip over it.

It is not telling us how things work together for those not yet saved.

What leads you to this conclusion? Are not those who will be saved "called according to His purpose?"

You weren't saved when Paul wrote these words, does that mean that this verse doesn't apply to you?

When does that calling occur Jerry? Before or after one comes to faith?

We keep bumping into your peculiar understanding of calling. Somehow you have it in your head that God's calling happens to us after we respond in faith, and before we are predestined, its very odd.

According to your ideas, the order of verse 29-30 should be:
Foreknowing (maybe)
Calling
Justification
Predestining to be conformed to Christ
Glorification

But Paul’s order is the following:
Foreknowing
Predestining to be conformed to Christ
Calling
Justification
Glorification

And here Paul tells us how all things work together for good to them who are saved:

Minor points here but important nonetheless.

Paul tells us how and why all things work together for the good of those who are or will be saved.

According to your ideas this is giving the reason why all things work together for the unsaved.

Where do you get such a preposterous idea? “My ideas” support no such conclusion! I am 100% confident that all things [do not work for the good of the unsaved in fact I am 100% confident that things go very badly for the unsaved if not during their earthly life, then definitely after.

I am similarly confident that things go quite well for the "not yet saved" because the "not yet saved" become the saved.

I'm hoping that you understand this.

But that is not what Paul said. Instead, he was telling us how all things work together for good for the saved.

Uh, huh.

The subject who will be predestined is never the "unsaved" but instead the "saved" but you change the subject of who is predestined to the "unsaved."

I see your problem here.

Jerry, God always predestines people beforehand, that why it’s called PREdestination.
According to your ideas, God predestines people to be conformed to Christ’s image after the get saved, after they are called according to His purpose.

The problem with this, again, is that it rips the order of verse 30 right to shreds.

I prefer to keep verse 30 as it is written even if that frustrates you.

Yes, the word translated "predestined" means to determine beforehand. According to you ideas it is not possible that the LORD determined from before the foundation of the world that the saved would be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus.

Where is your proof of that?



Again, where is your proof that the LORD could not determine before the foundation of the world that the saved will be made in the image of the Lord Jesus at the time when they will be caught up?

I have no proof that God could not do such a thing because this is precisely what I think God has done. God pre-determined those that He knew, with a relational knowledge, beforehand, and predestines them (not a plan, but "them") to be conformed to Christ. He then initiates his purpose for them by calling them, justifying the ones He called, and eventually glorifying them when Christ returns.


God is not predestining a plan, God is predestining people, because God did not foreknow a plan in Romans 8:28-30, He foreknew (knew relationally beforehand) His people.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

Of course I already answered verse 30 and once again you did not even attempt to prove what I said about that is in error. But you continue as if you did address it. if I am in error then prove that I am in error.

You are in error, Paul has the order just fine, your attempts to subtly reorder the passage is what puts you in error. God predestines prior to His calling and that is fatal flaw for your interpretation.

I've a hunch that you already see that it is. That’s why, according to your ideas, verse 30 is just a jumbled up mess rather than an orderly presentation of how God conforms His people into the image of Christ.

Your statement as follows shows as much:

I have already explained how that passage fits perfectly with what I said about the previous two verses and you had no objections to what I said. You just assume that passage is speaking of a chronological order.

Actually, what I assume is that the passage is in sequential order, because that is how the text presents it. The implication of your ideas is that verse 29-30 is a jumbled up mess that you need to re-order in order to substantiate your interpretation of the passage.

You don’t even realize your inconsistency in making that argument. You insist (rightly so) that glorification is at the end (when we are caught up). This harmonizes quote well with the fact that Paul places glorification at the end of the “golden chain” in verse 29-30. Nevertheless, you inconsistently allow for the rest of that chain to be re-ordered according to the needs of your theology rather than letting the text stand as it written.

No matter how much your flawed interpretation of what precedes verse 29 leads you to suggests it is out of order, I am going to let the text stand as it is and I’m going to provide a constant and annoying reminder that your order and Paul’s order aren’t the same; and that means your order is wrong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The ones who love God, who are called according to His purpose.

That's the "them" that I am talking about because that's the "them" that Paul is talking about.

Exactly, and according to your own words it is "them," the saved, who are predestined:

Yes, of course the reason that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose is because God foreknew them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Paul's words could not be any plainer and according to him it is the "saved" who are predestined.

But you say that is not those who are saved who are predestined.

Yes, and they got saved by being called according to His purpose. That part is important Jerry. You don't get to skip over it.

All the saved get saved by being called by the gospel. But that does not change the fact that it is the saved who are predestined.

Or perhaps you want to argue that it is the "unsaved" who are "them that love God"?

What leads you to this conclusion? Are not those who will be saved "called according to His purpose?"

The ones who love God are not referring to those "who will be saved" but instead those who are already saved.

You weren't saved when Paul wrote these words, does that mean that this verse doesn't apply to you?

If I would have never believed then the words would have never applied to me. But once I believed then at that point of time I was predestined to be conformed to His image.

When does that calling occur Jerry? Before or after one comes to faith?

Again, the words "them that love God" are referring to those who are already saved and not those who will be saved in the future.

You need to taker a refresher course on the 'tenses." After you do that then come back and then perhaps we can have an intelligent discussion on this subject.

But now that is impossible.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, the explanation you are seeking has been given to you at least three times now. I'll quote it again so please, please, please pay attention.
προγινώσκοντές and προέγνω are different forms of the same greek word!, namely προγινωσκω.
Lets stop here.
Yes you understand this or no you don't, which is it?
It wouldn't matter if I was a tenured Greek professor at your favorite seminary or a first year Greek student squeaking by. You either understand what I wrote or you don't.
I'm guessing, you don't.

Already addressed this, and you deemed to ignore it or didn't read it but in any event, why don't you exegete each verse and show US what they convey? Apparently you don't understand etymology?

 

[Dialogos]

Exactly, and according to your own words it is "them," the saved, who are predestined:

The saved are predestined, but that doesn't prove that they were predestined after they were saved.

If I told you that all attenders at a birthday part are "invited" would you argue that they got the invitation when they arrived at the party?

All the saved get saved by being called by the gospel. But that does not change the fact that it is the saved who are predestined.

It doesn't have to change any facts. All you need to do is let verse 29-30 tell you what order God did what.

Until you do that, you will wallow in confusion.

So why don't you tell us what the right order is, Jerry.

Paul orders the following events in the following way:

Foreknow
Predestine
Call
Justify
Glorify

Since you reject Paul's order, why don't you put them in order according to your own ideas.

 

[StanJ]

The saved are predestined, but that doesn't prove that they were predestined after they were saved.

Of course it does, if you see the order in Rom 8 and Eph 1. Salvation comes first then predestination according to His will and to conform to the IMAGE (Christ Likeness) of His son.

 

[Pierac]

Of course it does, if you see the order in Rom 8 and Eph 1. Salvation comes first then predestination according to His will and to conform to the IMAGE (Christ Likeness) of His son.

Did you just post this? :doh:

Eph 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω

Just like John the Baptist's Father...

Luk 1:9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he (Zacharias) was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

Act 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.


So... your saying... human choice comes before being chosen by lot??? :think:



You fail again to see the truth... :doh:
oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The saved are predestined, but that doesn't prove that they were predestined after they were saved.

All things work for good to those who are saved, those who love God. And the reason all things work for good to the saved is because it has been foreordained that they will put on immortal bodies when they are caught up to be with the Lord Jesus.

That is what Paul says but since that contradicts your preconceived ideas you try to pervert what he said.

It doesn't have to change any facts. All you need to do is let verse 29-30 tell you what order God did what.

Until you do that, you will wallow in confusion.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

It is the saved who are predestinated. Do you deny that the saved are called? Do you deny that the saved are justified? Do you deny that the saved are glorified?

If you will not deny any of those things then you must admit that my idea that it is the saved who are predestined is not contradicted by what is said at Romans 8:30.

The saved are predestined, but that doesn't prove that they were predestined after they were saved.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

We can also see that being chosen from the beginning one must believe and therefore be saved:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

So no one is predestined to salvation until they are first called and then believe. That means that "calling" precedes "predestination" so it is evident your idea that these are in chronological order cannot possibly be correct:

Paul orders the following events in the following way:

Foreknow
Predestine
Call
Justify
Glorify

 

[Dialogos]

All things work for good to those who are saved, those who love God. And the reason all things work for good to the saved is because it has been foreordained that they will put on immortal bodies when they are caught up to be with the Lord Jesus.

That is what Paul says but since that contradicts your preconceived ideas you try to pervert what he said.

You are the one who repudiates the order of Romans 8:29-30. So who is it that is perverting what Paul said?

It is the saved who are predestinated.

Ya' don't say.

Do you deny that the saved are called? Do you deny that the saved are justified? Do you deny that the saved are glorified?

No, nor do I deny that they occur in the order that Paul puts them in.

Let us look at this verse:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30 ESV)​

We can also see that being chosen from the beginning one must believe and therefore be saved:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

You are making my point for me. God chose us "in Him" before the foundation of the world. Therefore God's predestination precedes the call to salvation. Paul has it in the right order after all.

So no one is predestined to salvation until they are first called and then believe.... That means that "calling" precedes "predestination" so it is evident your idea that these are in chronological order cannot possibly be correct:

[/quote]
:nono:

I'll stick with what the word says rather than your perverted ideas.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:30 ESV)​

Paul clearly has them in order and everyone agrees that calling precedes justification and justification precedes glorification.

It is clear that you are willing to reorder the word of God according to your theology rather than allowing the text to stand as is.

:nono:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are making my point for me. God chose us "in Him" before the foundation of the world. Therefore God's predestination precedes the call to salvation. Paul has it in the right order after all.

Let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

According to you a person is predestined to salvation by belief in the truth and this happens before he is called by the gospel.

You fail to explain how a person can believe the truth before he hears that truth.

You stand reason on its head because you are determined to cling to your preconceived ideas.

Please explain how a person can believe the truth before he even hears that truth.

 

[Dialogos]

Let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

According to you a person is predestined to salvation by belief in the truth and this happens before he is called by the gospel.

No, no. According to the bible.

(Ephesians 1:1-5 ESV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,​

You fail to explain how a person can believe the truth before he hears that truth.

What are you talking about?

Lets look at 2 Thess again.

God from the beginning chose you...​

God choice of us comes first.

So what did God choose us for?

...for salvation...​

Stop there a minute. God chose us to be saved, right there in the text.

So how does God plan that this would be accomplished?

...through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ)
​

All you have to do is look at the text. God's chooses from the beginning for us to be saved and that that this would be accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Simple, really.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, no. According to the bible.

(Ephesians 1:1-5 ESV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,​

Evidently you do not even understand what the words "in Him" mean. Do you think that someone can be In Christ before he has heard the gospel and before he has believed it?

Lets look at 2 Thess again.

God from the beginning chose you...​

God choice of us comes first.

So what did God choose us for?

...for salvation...​

Stop there a minute. God chose us to be saved, right there in the text.

So how does God plan that this would be accomplished?

...through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ)
​

All you have to do is look at the text. God's chooses from the beginning for us to be saved and that that this would be accomplished through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

That is what I said. One is not predestined unto salvation until he is called by the gospel and believes it.

That can only mean that the calling happens before the one who believes is predestined.

But you say that being predestined happens prior to one's calling.

You are unable to think clearly about these things. You stay in a state of confusion because you cling to your preconceived ideas.