What is forgiveness?

[Spockrates]

How else could Jesus love them as he loves himself?

I can think of no other. So would you say, then the reason God forgave the Roman executioners is they were ignorant of their sin? That they did not know what they were doing was wrong?

Do these commandments apply under such extreme circumstances?

Sure.

 

[Spockrates]

People ultimately do not know how wrong they are.

Even man at his best standard falls short of the glory of God

Does that include all people all of the time? Or merely some people some of the time?

 

[PureX]

Hope you had a good weekend. Sorry for the delay in responding. I had to manage a modification I uploaded to a couple of online game sites this weekend. It's a hobby of mine.

So I think you might have missed my question when you responded. For I asked:

I suppose, then you would concur with this: It would never be accurate to say love is patient, love is kind, love is not being envious, love is not being proud, love is not easily angered, love is not keeping a record of wrongs. For these traits describe the effects of love (such as forgiveness) but not the compassion that causes these effects. Does this ring true so far?

You didn't appear to ascent or deny that love is patient, kind, humble, calm and not keeping a record of wrongs. But I understand that love is compassion, respect and concern for another's well being.

I am not as absolute or 'literal-minded' as you and seem to be. Terms like "always" and "never" make me wince.

I would say that love inspires all those outward traits, and more. They are how love acting in us, effects others, through us.

But keep in mind we could display many of those traits listed, toward others, with very different motives: to deceive them, for example. Which is why I think it's inaccurate to say that love "IS" these outward expressions. Often, these outward expressions are used to masquerade control, and deceit, as love.

 

[Spockrates]

I am not as absolute or 'literal-minded' as you and seem to be. Terms like "always" and "never" make me wince.



I would say that love inspires all those outward traits, and more. They are how love acting in us, effects others, through us.



But keep in mind we could display many of those traits listed, toward others, with very different motives: to deceive them, for example. Which is why I think it's inaccurate to say that love "IS" these outward expressions. Often, these outward expressions are used to masquerade control, and deceit, as love.

Thank you for clarifying. But please let me be sure I understand: Am I correct in thinking that you, by using the words, "outward traits" and "how love...affects others" are speaking not about what love is, but instead about what love does?

So is what you are saying that, while patience, kindness, humility, calmness and keeping not record of wrongs describe forgiveness, these outward traits are actually effects of love rather than love itself?

 

[PureX]

Thank you for clarifying. But please let me be sure I understand: Am I correct in thinking that you, by using the words, "outward traits" and "how love...affects others" are speaking not about what love is, but instead about what love does?

Yes.

So is what you are saying that, while patience, kindness, humility, calmness and keeping not record of wrongs describe forgiveness, these outward traits are actually effects of love rather than love itself?

Yes. Love is the spirit, not the effect. The effects can be faked, the spirit cannot.

 

[glorydaz]

Forgive me for not replying till now. Busy weekend! And I wasn't offended. Just curious. Please forgive me for getting the wrong idea.


I believe I comprehend.




So are you saying you don't need to do anything to forgive? Or are you saying you don't need to figure out what you need to do to forgive, because you already know?

I'm trying to say those things I try to DO through my own diligent effort to forgive or love others, for example, have always been beyond my ability. I can say I love and say I forgive, and I can try really hard to muster that love and forgiveness up, but I will not succeed on the level God has in mind.

It's only when I give up, and admit to the Lord that I still fall short. It is then that He works a change on my heart that I would never be able to accomplish on my own. If it weren't that way, then I would be able to boast of how I was able to love and forgive. HE performs that work in me and I have NOTHING to boast over. I can't say I figured it out or I did thus and so and this is how I did it.

 

[PureX]

I'm trying to say those things I try to DO through my own diligent effort to forgive or love others, for example, have always been beyond my ability. I can say I love and say I forgive, and I can try really hard to muster that love and forgiveness up, but I will not succeed on the level God has in mind.

It's only when I give up, and admit to the Lord that I still fall short. It is then that He works a change on my heart that I would never be able to accomplish on my own. If it weren't that way, then I would be able to boast of how I was able to love and forgive. HE performs that work in me and I have NOTHING to boast over. I can't say I figured it out or I did thus and so and this is how I did it.

Interestingly, this is how the various 12-step programs work, as well. What I cannot do on my own, (stop drinking,) I can somehow do with that 'power greater than myself'. The difference is that in the case of the 12 step program, that higher power is being manifested through the group dynamic, and through our sincere desire to help others get and stay sober. Together, with God's spirit of love, we can do what none of us could do on our own.

I mention this because some religionists balk at the notion that God "has help", or that humans are involved in some way in the healing. But Jesus spoke in many ways and on many occasions of how the love of God and the love of ourselves and each other are one and the same love. And how the forgiveness of God is directly related to our own forgiveness of others, and of ourselves. Our relationship with God plays out in our relationships with each other. That's a fundamental principal of Christianity.

The "no works" theology is wrong. Yet you are correct in stating that we very often cannot do God's will on our own. We need each other's help.

 

[glorydaz]

Interestingly, this is how the various 12-step programs work, as well. What I cannot do on my own, (stop drinking,) I can somehow do with that 'power greater than myself'. The difference is that in the case of the 12 step program, that higher power is being manifested through the group dynamic, and through our sincere desire to help others get and stay sober. Together, with God's spirit of love, we can do what none of us could do on our own.

I mention this because some religionists balk at the notion that God "has help", or that humans are involved in some way in the healing. But Jesus spoke in many ways and on many occasions of how the love of God and the love of ourselves and each other are one and the same love. And how the forgiveness of God is directly related to our own forgiveness of others, and of ourselves. Our relationship with God plays out in our relationships with each other. That's a fundamental principal of Christianity.

The "no works" theology is wrong. Yet you are correct in stating that we very often cannot do God's will on our own. We need each other's help.

I can't disagree with you there, Purex. God uses people all the time, but they are not doing the healing. It's like when the potter adds water to soften the clay....

Group humanity can only get people so far - the person may struggle and work for years and still never come close to what God can perform in the believer once we get out of His way....trusting Him to perform the doing of it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-25
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.​

 

[OCTOBER23]

Forgiveness


Forgiveness


https://youtu.be/Xezg3z5IE8I

"The Heart Of The Matter"

I got the call today, I didn't wanna hear
But I knew that it would come
An old true friend of ours was talkin' on the phone
She said you found someone
And I thought of all the bad luck,
And the struggles we went through
And how I lost me and you lost you
What are these voices outside love's open door
Make us throw off our contentment
And beg for something more?

I'm learning to live without you now
But I miss you sometimes
The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again
I've been tryin' to get down to the Heart of the Matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

These times are so uncertain
There's a yearning undefined
...People filled with rage
We all need a little tenderness
How can love survive in such a graceless age
The trust and self-assurance that can lead to happiness
They're the very things we kill, I guess
Pride and competition cannot fill these empty arms
And the work I put between us,
Doesn't keep me warm

I'm learning to live without you now
But I miss you, Baby
The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I figured out, I have to learn again
I've been tryin' to get down to the Heart of the Matter
But everything changes
And my friends seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

There are people in your life who've come and gone
They let you down and hurt your pride
Better put it all behind you; life goes on
You keep carrin' that anger, it'll eat you inside

I've been tryin' to get down to the Heart of the Matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

I've been tryin' to get down to the Heart of the Matter
Because the flesh will get weak
And the ashes will scatter
So I'm thinkin' about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

 

[Eric h]

Originally Posted by Eric H
How else could Jesus love them as he loves himself?

I can think of no other. So would you say, then the reason God forgave the Roman executioners is they were ignorant of their sin? That they did not know what they were doing was wrong?

Unless you can come to terms with forgiving the people who have hurt you, you will not come to understand how God can forgive. Jesus died for people who are ignorant of theirs sins, and also for people who sin with full knowledge, including me and you.

Forgiving is a journey, always one day at a time, we take the first step today, then a month a year, twenty years down the line, forgiving becomes easier, but we can still retain the grief of any loss.

You seem to accept that Jesus could still love his neighbours as he loved himself, even to the point of crucifixion, our struggle is to do likewise.

 

[PureX]

I can't disagree with you there, Purex. God uses people all the time, but they are not doing the healing. It's like when the potter adds water to soften the clay....

Group humanity can only get people so far - the person may struggle and work for years and still never come close to what God can perform in the believer once we get out of His way....trusting Him to perform the doing of it.

Why do you insist on separating us from God, like that? God's spirit exists IN US, and it's what inspires and enables us to do His healing work. We are reflections of our Creator in this way. So why keep insisting that God's spirit in us, and us, are separate? Or that we should never credit ourselves for the achievements of that divine spirit within?

I appreciate our need for humility, and that we must always understand that are not omniscient, omnipresent, nor omnipotent. But I don't think that it's an honest (or Christian) way of viewing the relationship between God and mankind to separate us completely from God within. Especially for a Christian.

 

[glorydaz]

Why do you insist on separating us from God, like that? God's spirit exists IN US, and it's what inspires and enables us to do His healing work. We are reflections of our Creator in this way. So why keep insisting that God's spirit in us, and us, are separate? Or that we should never credit ourselves for the achievements of that divine spirit within?

I appreciate our need for humility, and that we must always understand that are not omniscient, omnipresent, nor omnipotent. But I don't think that it's an honest (or Christian) way of viewing the relationship between God and mankind to separate us completely from God within. Especially for a Christian.

And how is it you've imagined I've done that?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Yes.

Yes. Love is the spirit, not the effect. The effects can be faked, the spirit cannot.

And forgive me for repeating myself, but I want to ask one more question just to be sure: So if I were to ask someone, "What is love?" and she were to tell me, "Love is patient, love is kind. Love is not self-seeking. Love is not easily angered. Love keeps no record of wrongs." would I be correct to say that you would gently and respectfully disagree?

Would it be fair to expect you to explain that these things are not what love is but only what effects love has, since patience, kindness, selflessness, calmness and not keeping a record of wrongs can be faked, but the spirit of love cannot?

 

[Spockrates]

I'm trying to say those things I try to DO through my own diligent effort to forgive or love others, for example, have always been beyond my ability. I can say I love and say I forgive, and I can try really hard to muster that love and forgiveness up, but I will not succeed on the level God has in mind.



It's only when I give up, and admit to the Lord that I still fall short. It is then that He works a change on my heart that I would never be able to accomplish on my own. If it weren't that way, then I would be able to boast of how I was able to love and forgive. HE performs that work in me and I have NOTHING to boast over. I can't say I figured it out or I did thus and so and this is how I did it.

Yes, I apprehend, but I don't yet comprehend. When you say God empowers you to forgive, what exactly does he give you the power to think, say or do? Please explain the things this power helps you accomplish.

 

[PureX]

And forgive me for repeating myself, but I want to ask one more question just to be sure: So if I were to ask someone, "What is love?" and she were to tell me, "Love is patient, love is kind. Love is not self-seeking. Love is not easily angered. Love keeps no record of wrongs." would I be correct to say that you would gently and respectfully disagree?

It's not likely that in a general conversation I would feel the need to clarify, but it's true that I do disagree. I think those are common manifestations of the spirit of love, but they can be, and sometimes are manifested for other motives.

Would it be fair to expect you to explain that these things are not what love is but only what effects love has, since patience, kindness, selflessness, calmness and not keeping a record of wrongs can be faked, but the spirit of love cannot?

Again, under normal circumstances I don't see any need to differentiate the manifestations from the spiritual impetus. But, yes, I do believe they are manifestations of love, not the love, itself.

 

[PureX]

And how is it you've imagined I've done that?

I'm not sure you have. But it is a common theme on TOL, and I did want to respond to it. If you weren't implying it, then consider yourself used, tangentially. :devil: Sorry.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Unless you can come to terms with forgiving the people who have hurt you, you will not come to understand how God can forgive. Jesus died for people who are ignorant of theirs sins, and also for people who sin with full knowledge, including me and you.

So there is a child who does not know how to swim. She asks you to teach her. Instead of explaining how to go about swimming and showing her how to do it, would you just throw her off a pier? When she cries out for help, would you refuse and say, "Unless you can come to terms with not drowning, you'll never understand how to swim!"

Forgiving is a journey, always one day at a time, we take the first step today, then a month a year, twenty years down the line, forgiving becomes easier, but we can still retain the grief of any loss.



You seem to accept that Jesus could still love his neighbours as he loved himself, even to the point of crucifixion, our struggle is to do likewise.

If I were to try to jump in the water to save her, would you hold me back and say this? "She's starting to understand she must stay afloat! Let her learn from the struggle!"

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

It's not likely that in a general conversation I would feel the need to clarify, but it's true that I do disagree. I think those are common manifestations of the spirit of love, but they can be, and sometimes are manifested for other motives.
Again, under normal circumstances I don't see any need to differentiate the manifestations from the spiritual impetus. But, yes, I do believe they are manifestations of love, not the love, itself.

Well, I must admit I admire the logic of your reasoning. It is consistent to the degree that if the premises are true, then the conclusion that love isn't patient, isn't kind, isn't selfless, isn't not easily angered and isn't not keeping a record of wrongs must be true!

But then I read these words of Paul and wonder:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)

Doesn't the apostle disagree with us? Doesn't he say love actually is all these things we think it is not?

 

[PureX]

Well, I must admit I admire the logic of your reasoning. It is consistent to the degree that if the premises are true, then the conclusion that love isn't patient, isn't kind, isn't selfless, isn't not easily angered and isn't not keeping a record of wrongs must be true!

But then I read these words of Paul and wonder:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)

Doesn't the apostle disagree with us? Doesn't he say love actually is all these things we think it is not?

I don't see the Bible quote as a "disagreement" so much as it being just somewhat inarticulate. Clearly, the quote is listing these manifestations of love so that we can recognize love both for, and from, others. The quote just doesn't bother to explain that love is the spiritual impetus for these manifestations rather than the manifestations, themselves. And that these manifestations could be the result of some other spiritual motive.

Paul was not a professional writer, after all. And this is still one of my favorite quotes from the Bible. Even if it was not articulated to the degree that it could have been.

 

[Eric h]

So there is a child who does not know how to swim. She asks you to teach her. Instead of explaining how to go about swimming and showing her how to do it, would you just throw her off a pier? When she cries out for help, would you refuse and say, "Unless you can come to terms with not drowning, you'll never understand how to swim!"

That's pretty near how I learned to swim at the age of fourteen, I jumped off the pier, and went under a few times, the teacher saw me panicking, so he jumped in and pulled me out.
Going under the water, helped me loose my fear of water, and I was swimming for the first time, minutes later.

There comes a stage with learning to swim, when you have to do something on your own, no more floating supports, no more people holding you.

I think it is very much the same with forgiving, you know the theory, you can ask for help and support, but at some point, you have to forgive on your own. it is your journey, nobody else can do it for you.

Like swimming, you will know when you have succeeded.