What is forgiveness?

JosephR

New member
Two states I'd like to visit someday. Would be good to say I tasked some great cheese in Wisconsin and sang the theme song from Oklahoma in Oklahoma! :D

I know what you mean. the first time I went to Georgia i bought some peaches from a road side stand and when in Florida I saw my first gator and swam in the Ocean :)
 

Spockrates

New member
What is forgiveness?

I know what you mean. the first time I went to Georgia i bought some peaches from a road side stand and when in Florida I saw my first gator and swam in the Ocean :)


LOL! Yeah, I've eaten apples in Indiana, Italian food in upstate New York, Hershie bars in Pennsylvania, fish caught in Marilyn and Florida, tasted wines in California and ate bird (roasted pigeon) in Kingston Canada. Funny how we associate food and drink with places we go.
 

JosephR

New member
LOL! Yeah, I've eaten apples in Indiana, Hershie bars in Pennsylvania, fish caught in Marilyn and Florida, tasted wines in California and ate bird (roasted pigeon) in Kingston Canada. Funny how we associate food and drink with places we go.

here you gota come with me and catch a few blues outa the arkansas river..then we are in hog heaven :) in Texas they have bar b q that rivals or beats Kansas City, My Dad said most ppl eat to live, He lived to eat :)
 

Spockrates

New member
here you gota come with me and catch a few blues outa the arkansas river..then we are in hog heaven :) in Texas they have bar b q that rivals or beats Kansas City, My Dad said most ppl eat to live, He lived to eat :)


Sweet! Yeah it would be great to eat and drink something in each state that it's known for. :)
 

Spockrates

New member
What is forgiveness?

Minnesota used to be known for Lutefisk and Lefse and headcheese.

Now known for Walleye, baked potato and corn on the cob!


Now you did it, bybee! You made me hungry. But I guess I'll forgive you for that, if I ever figure out what forgiveness is. ;)
 

PureX

Well-known member
PureX: This post is where I got the idea that you agreed you previously said Paul misunderstood love, did a poor job of explaining love, or the scholars who translated our Bible got it wrong.

Was that not what you intended to convey by your reply? For you said, "Or a combination of those [three]."
The very next thing I wrote was: "But honestly, I don't see how this matters. I can't know what was in Paul's mind …"

And; "Perhaps Paul's vagueness was intended to make us take the time to consider the phenomena of love more carefully …" (as is often the intent with poetic writing).
 

PureX

Well-known member
Forgive me for being slow to comprehend. For I'm not sure I understand why you think it is vague. Please explain why you hold this opinion.
As I have already stated, it attributes behavioral characteristics to love, personified, rather than to a person motivated by a spirit of love. It also ignores the fact that these behavioral characteristics could be manifested by a spirit other than love.
I apologize for being confused. For it appears the words Paul wrote actually are what he was thinking, and those words in 1 Corinthians 13 appear me to be chrystal clear. But I suppose I'll change my mind after you explain why they're only clear as mud to you.
I have already done so several times. That's enough.
You see, after our discussion, it's now apparent to me that Paul is either using personification or is speaking quite literally. As mentioned earlier, the words, "Love is patient. Love is kind..." and so on only make sense if they are describing a person: "[He] is patient. [He] is kind..."
But love is not a person. And by literal definition, patience is patience. And kindness is kindness. And neither of them IS love as Paul asserts.
As we discussed, Paul couldn't mean love is patience and kindness, since he didn't use the words patience and kindness. Moreover, he couldn't mean love is being patient and being kind, for he didn't use the word being.
And therein lies the confusion. Language is an imprecise means of conveying thought. Always has been, and always will be. And we humans are always going to be limited in our ability to use language to convey our thought. Not to mention the fact that our thoughts are often somewhat confused, to begin with. These are just the facts of the human condition.
The most logical inference left me is that Paul meant what he wrote, I think.
I'm sure he did. But did the translators understand what he meant when they translated it? … Several times and into several succeeding languages? And did Paul understand what he meant to say as clearly as you seem to be insisting?

That's a lot of 'ifs', there.
Now that seems to leave me only two likely options:

1. Love is symbolically like a person who is kind.

or

2. Love is actually a person who is kind.

But I think you had a third option, which I don't fully understand, and which deserves further consideration. Please continue.
The third option is that love is a spirit that inhabits a person's 'being', and that when it does so, causes them to exhibit the behavioral characteristics identified by Paul's list. I do not know that Paul fully understood this from the words we are reading. But then, I don't really care if he did or didn't. The text has enough poetic inference for me to grasp the ideal, and that's good enough for me.
 

Eric h

Well-known member
Agreed. Where Paul is ambiguous, all we can do is guess at his meaning. I'm also thinking that where Paul is clearer than mud in what he writes, we do know what was in his mind. Writing, after all is putting one's thoughts into written word.

I heard an interesting sermon on 1 Corinthians 13, the priest replaced the word 'love' with 'I' and it reads like this...

4 I am patient, I am kind. I do not envy, I do not boast, I am not proud. 5 I do not dishonor others, I am not self-seeking, I am not easily angered, I keep no record of wrongs. 6 I do not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 I always protect, always trust, always hope, always persevere.

And we would have to be a saint if this was true of us.
 

PureX

Well-known member
I heard an interesting sermon on 1 Corinthians 13, the priest replaced the word 'love' with 'I' and it reads like this...

4 I am patient, I am kind. I do not envy, I do not boast, I am not proud. 5 I do not dishonor others, I am not self-seeking, I am not easily angered, I keep no record of wrongs. 6 I do not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 I always protect, always trust, always hope, always persevere.

And we would have to be a saint if this was true of us.
Yet they are certainly characteristic to aspire to.
 
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