What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

oatmeal

Well-known member
I see that you do not know the scriptures well enough, and I am glad you asked for them.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

Jesus told Peter about the gates of Hell not over coming the church. The church is the body of Christ. Gates of Hell keep people in Hell, but the gates of Hell could not keep Jesus there.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.


Your opinion of who the spirits who are in prison is interesting.

However, the dead are dead, not alive somewhere in some prison or in any other place.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

There is not consciousness in death, none whatsoever, not physical, not mental not spiritual

Death is death.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Your questions are good ones, but some are hard to answer. I expect we could trust the original word of God, but it's hard to know what it is without trusting, to some degree, those texts and translations. I expect we can trust those fairly well, and thus we can have these conversations.

In regard to your assurance that death is the absence of life, can the absence of something be thrown? [Rev 20:14 KJV] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Perhaps these words are pictorial--giving us an image of death being completely destroyed. I'm ok with that, but it brings up an issue. First, I think you would say that all those that were dead before, that hadn't been resurrected already, were resurrected, right? Else John wouldn't have seen the small and great STANDING before God, right?

So then, if they were dead, and then were resurrected, and then are thrown into the lake of fire, are they dead again after that? Are they dead in the same way--in an "absence of life" kind of way?

If so, why were they resurrected? Was it for judgment, to determine if they should die? Remember that they were already dead, and thus had been judged worthy of death once before.

So if they are judged worthy of death once more, does it seem to you that they are being punished twice for the same crime/sins? Or do you think this judgment is one that is about something else?

Being part of a ministry that believes that it is possible with prayer, right believing and the right dividing of the word of truth we can have the understanding of God's original intent for us as given in His written word, the written logos.

Can death be cast into a lake?

Well, good question.

Have you read Psalm 18:2 and asked "is God literally referring to himself as David's rock?"

Is God some rock that David kept in his pocket or in his shepherd's bag? Obviously not.

Or is God some huge rock like the rock of Gibraltar that is unmoveable? Well, which big rock is He?

Can we go there and see him/it?

Clearly God is speaking, not literally, but figuratively.

That is God uses figures of speech to call attention to certain truths.

Likewise is God literally a horn? In this culture that would be a ram's horn. Where is that horn? Is it lost? Can I use it at a football game?

Again, clearly God is not speaking literally, God is not literally a horn. It is a figure of speech

Joshua 11:4

And they went out, they and all their hosts with them, much people, even as the sand that is upon the sea shore in multitude, with horses and chariots very many.

Judges 7:12

And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.

How many grains of sand are there by the sea? I think that I have read that there are trillions of grains of sand.

Is those two passages literal? Obviously not. But by using the figures of speech simile (a comparison using the word like or as) and the figure of speech hyperbole (exaggeration) we learn more than a simple number could convey, we also learn about the possible emotional realities of the situation as well as the fact there were a great many.

Jesus as a prophet of God spoke what God told him to speak.

When Jesus Christ referred to himself as the bread of life, was he literally referring to himself a loaf of bread? No, obviously not.. but he does refer to himself as a staple food in the diet of that culture one basic source of nutrition for the people of that culture and time

Likewise he is our spiritual bread, a source of spiritual and soul nutrition for our lives

There is a figure of speech that exchanges one for another.

For instance, the result for the source.

For instance, God's word, the written logos is referred to as the word of life in Philippians 2

Is the words on the page of your Bible literally life? How about when you speak God's words to another are my your words literally life? No, but they do represent and give life to those who believe them. Why because of who the author of those words is, God himself who is the author or source of life. His words represent Him who is the author of life

Hebrews 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Who has the power of death?

a. God

b. the devil

If you get rid of the one who has the power of death by casting him into the lake of fire, you eliminate the
source of death and by doing so you eliminate death


There is a second death.

this death comes after the resurrection of the unjust.

Interestingly, they will be in the presence of God who they rejected and/or claim did not exist.

That was an evil choice on their part to reject God who gave all life.

Since evil is destructive and self destructive, they will simply reap what they have sown, they will die as the result of having chosen evil which is destructive and self destructive.

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23
 

Derf

Well-known member
Being part of a ministry that believes that it is possible with prayer, right believing and the right dividing of the word of truth we can have the understanding of God's original intent for us as given in His written word, the written logos.
:thumb:


Hebrews 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Who has the power of death?

a. God

b. the devil

If you get rid of the one who has the power of death by casting him into the lake of fire, you eliminate the
source of death and by doing so you eliminate death
Agreed, but...
There seem to be 2 actions, one throwing Satan in the the lake of fire (Rev 20:10), and another throwing death and hades into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). This is AFTER both death and hades had been emptied (along with the sea) of their dead (Rev 20:13). Finally, those that were not found in the book of life were thrown in (Rev 20:15).

Because of the association of the sea with death and hades, it makes me wonder if these terms are speaking of some kind of container, like the sea. "Hades" is often thought of as a place, either "the grave" or "a temporary place of confinement prior to final judgment". So if two of the three are containers, is the third a container, also? A "prison", of sorts? If so, what is being stored in the the container that is released? Is it a "spirit", or is it a "body", or both? I tend to think it is the body that is being released from these places, thus indicating the form of the resurrection--it is a bodily resurrection (I'm not sure any other kind makes sense anyway). And thus the second death is not just something that affects spirits or souls, but bodies as well.


There is a second death.

this death comes after the resurrection of the unjust.
I know Luke 14:14 talks of the "resurrection of the just", and Acts 24:15 talks of the "resurrection of the dead, both just and unjust". The first resurrection certainly seems to be of the just (Rev 20:4-5), but is it all of the just? Vs 4 seems to limit it to those that were killed by the beast. Rev 20:12, 15 seem to indicate that some of those that are resurrected in the 2nd wave will be found in the book of life, which I think we would associate with the word "just".

Interestingly, they will be in the presence of God who they rejected and/or claim did not exist.

That was an evil choice on their part to reject God who gave all life.

Since evil is destructive and self destructive, they will simply reap what they have sown, they will die as the result of having chosen evil which is destructive and self destructive.

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23
Do you think there is no wrath of God at this point, or is the wrath manifested by merely letting evil take its natural course without the intervening hand of God? Is that the "fire" of the lake?
 

God's Truth

New member
Your opinion of who the spirits who are in prison is interesting.

However, the dead are dead, not alive somewhere in some prison or in any other place.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

There is not consciousness in death, none whatsoever, not physical, not mental not spiritual

Death is death.

Read that Psalm more carefully.

Psalm 6:5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psalm 30:9
“What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?

Psalm 88:10
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you?

Psalm 88:11
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?

Psalm 115:17
It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence;

Psalm 118:17
I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Psalm 28:1
Of David. To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit.

These are scriptures of men speaking on their own in times of turmoil. God gives them life and healing in this world, but does it mean there really is no spirit that lives on after the death of our bodies? The scriptures in the New Testament show us our spirits live on after the death of our bodies.
 

God's Truth

New member
Why don't you study things on the internet? It's the largest knowledge resource in History all at your fingertips, (a miracle from God). What limited resource do you use? Even the largest library in the world in Washington is a drop in the ocean compared to the internet and a million times slower.

Put it in your own words and put it here to debate.
 

God's Truth

New member
Your opinion of who the spirits who are in prison is interesting.

I just really like hearing that from you. You probably didn't mean to encourage me to talk to you more about it, but you did.

The Old Testament was about earthy man, and earthly things. See Romans 7:4-6.
The New Testament is about the spiritual. See John 6:63.
The Old Testament was prophecies about what was coming. See Romans 16:26.
The New Testament is prophecies fulfilled, and revelations revealed about the spiritual. See Ephesians 6:19.

Jesus shows us that after being tortured and dying that we continue to live in the spirit.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Put it in your own words and put it here to debate.

Okay but I don't believe you don't use the internet, so why don't you click on links? They help in debating some times. Such as the video I posted, because while it shows we are more likely to have some of Abraham's genes in all of us mathematically/statistically than not, it's easier to learn this fact when shown on a white board using a pictorial family tree that I can't draw here. But this is true.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
:thumb:


Agreed, but...
There seem to be 2 actions, one throwing Satan in the the lake of fire (Rev 20:10), and another throwing death and hades into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). This is AFTER both death and hades had been emptied (along with the sea) of their dead (Rev 20:13). Finally, those that were not found in the book of life were thrown in (Rev 20:15).

Because of the association of the sea with death and hades, it makes me wonder if these terms are speaking of some kind of container, like the sea. "Hades" is often thought of as a place, either "the grave" or "a temporary place of confinement prior to final judgment". So if two of the three are containers, is the third a container, also? A "prison", of sorts? If so, what is being stored in the the container that is released? Is it a "spirit", or is it a "body", or both? I tend to think it is the body that is being released from these places, thus indicating the form of the resurrection--it is a bodily resurrection (I'm not sure any other kind makes sense anyway). And thus the second death is not just something that affects spirits or souls, but bodies as well.


I know Luke 14:14 talks of the "resurrection of the just", and Acts 24:15 talks of the "resurrection of the dead, both just and unjust". The first resurrection certainly seems to be of the just (Rev 20:4-5), but is it all of the just? Vs 4 seems to limit it to those that were killed by the beast. Rev 20:12, 15 seem to indicate that some of those that are resurrected in the 2nd wave will be found in the book of life, which I think we would associate with the word "just".

Do you think there is no wrath of God at this point, or is the wrath manifested by merely letting evil take its natural course without the intervening hand of God? Is that the "fire" of the lake?

There is of course, God's wrath, that God will implement.

But we must keep this in the perspective of who God says He is.

God is love

God is light

God is just

God is rich in mercy, (Note that it does not say that God is mercy, but rather that He is rich in mercy)

God's word, His logos, is truth.

God's word is light

God's will is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I Timothy 2:4

Those who do not choose salvation do not get salvation

That salvation includes or is called, the gift of eternal life.

If Bob has not received that gift of eternal life, then Bob does not have eternal life and shall die eventually

It does not matter if Bob tried to be "good" (Osama bin Laden thought he was doing good by the standards of the god, ie, the devils, he served...) or worked against God, Bob does not have eternal life, Bob will die the second death.

God does have a day of vengeance, the word says so.

Note it does not say this is eternity of vengeance and eternal torment towards his enemies, but a day, a period of time of vengeance.

Evidently God want to make sure His people witness the destruction of His and His people's enemies

That will be satisfying to see them gone.

However, since God's believers will enjoy God's love and kindness ... for eternity, I personally would not want to be bothered with having God's enemies alive for all eternity, let alone tormented. I just want them gone forever. Oops, I seem to be in a tangent

The resurrection of the just means exactly that.

However, since the saints of this age of grace will have already rose from the dead and the alive be taken up to heaven, the believers in this age of grace are not included in the resurrection of the just. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 we have been saved from the wrath to come
 

God's Truth

New member
Okay but I don't believe you don't use the internet,
What do you think I use it for and prove I said what you claim.

so why don't you click on links? They help in debating some times.

People don't have time to read articles from other people.

We are here to debate each other.

Put your beliefs down in posts.

Why can't you understand that?

Such as the video I posted, because while it shows we are more likely to have some of Abraham's genes in all of us mathematically/statistically than not, it's easier to learn this fact when shown on a white board using a pictorial family tree that I can't draw here. But this is true.

God says it is NOT of human descent anymore. So I believe God that not all are blood related to Abraham, not in any way that matters. Stick to the scriptures, it has the words of God and can give wisdom to those who follow it.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
What do you think I use it for and prove I said what you claim.



People don't have time to read articles from other people.

We are here to debate each other.

Put your beliefs down in posts.

Why can't you understand that?



God says it is NOT of human descent anymore. So I believe God that not all are blood related to Abraham, not in any way that matters. Stick to the scriptures, it has the words of God and can give wisdom to those who follow it.

Well this proves my point about not using the internet for research as you have not studied the material put forward in the debate, and you can't claim you don't have time that's a lame excuse. You can't have it both ways, either you debate by engaging with what the other is putting to you or you don't but then if you don't you can't claim to have engaged in the debate. That's a cop out and what is sadder is you are missing out on furthering your understanding of this reality.
 

Derf

Well-known member
However, since God's believers will enjoy God's love and kindness ... for eternity, I personally would not want to be bothered with having God's enemies alive for all eternity, let alone tormented. I just want them gone forever. Oops, I seem to be in a tangent
Thanks for recognizing that. Good way to mention your issue, and good way to let it drop! :thumb:
The resurrection of the just means exactly that.

However, since the saints of this age of grace will have already rose from the dead and the alive be taken up to heaven, the believers in this age of grace are not included in the resurrection of the just. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 we have been saved from the wrath to come
This is an interesting perspective, not always thought out all the way by premillinial proponents. You are suggesting that there are really 3 resurrections: one at the end of the age of grace, and it only affects church-age believers; one at the end of the tribulation (called "first" in Rev 20) that only affects tribulation believers; and that leaves the "second" in Rev 20 as really the third. Can you give me your thoughts on who you think is involved in the "second"/third resurrection? does it include old testament believers, or are those part of "the just" in the "first"/second? does it include unreached people?

Will there be a final appeal to believe/submit to God after the "second"/third? If not, why does it seem that there are some that are written in the book of life (as evidenced by the checking it and only sending those not written into the fire (Rev 20:15).

CS Lewis seemed to think (according to a statement in his "The Last Battle" children's book, and maybe other places I haven't read) that good works done in the name of a false God might be attributed to a worship of the true God, and thus these might be considered written in the book of life. What do you think?

The other possibility I thought of (mentioned in the OP, I think) that people are written into the book of life by Jesus' death--all people perhaps--and there's another factor that prevents them from staying there. One suggestion is that there is a final appeal to submit to Jesus as Lord, and those that won't are cast into the fire. You're distinction between the "age of grace" participants and others might allow for something such as this.
 

God's Truth

New member
Well this proves my point about not using the internet for research as you have not studied the material put forward in the debate, and you can't claim you don't have time that's a lame excuse. You can't have it both ways, either you debate by engaging with what the other is putting to you or you don't but then if you don't you can't claim to have engaged in the debate. That's a cop out and what is sadder is you are missing out on furthering your understanding of this reality.

You have no argument.

If your article is something you want me to read, put the most important parts to it here and debate it with me. I am not going to go and study an article by someone else. We are here to debate each other. You need to debate your beliefs here yourself.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
You have no argument.

If your article is something you want me to read, put the most important parts to it here and debate it with me. I am not going to go and study an article by someone else. We are here to debate each other. You need to debate your beliefs here yourself.

If I could have done that I would have but is a youtube video. You could have watched it by now with all the time you've wasted prevaricating.
 
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