This is how I understand it.
T6: This is how I understand it.
I agree, before Jesus' D,B & R being baptized in his name wasn't practiced and would not profit anyone because his blood was not backing it.
You make an interesting point, T6. Yet, even prior to His D, B & R, being miraculously healed by Jesus was surely profitable, and I could write a book on His healing heritable genetic afflictions (John 9:1, 2, 3, 4) with particular interest in John 9:4 KJV. Please listen momentarily to Jesus speaking to His detractors:
John 10:37-42, KJV “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But, if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him; but he escaped out of their hand, And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there.
John wasn’t just preaching about an anonymous Messiah, T6. John had been preaching “the man” in the wilderness, this man, Jesus. Therefore, John the Baptizer was baptizing in the name of Jesus, although not explicitly written. JTB’s followers were repenting of believing Pharisaic teaching that Messiah had to be a descendant of Abraham and his WIFE (Keturah), and then a descendant of Isaiah’s Messianic progenitor (Isaiah 65:9) and his WIFE (Genesis 38:1, 2, 12). Jesus’ non-Israelite detractors said, “We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man…” “We be not born of fornication…” (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:41 KJV).
Hopefully I’ve brought some prior discussion to mind, T6. I’ve looked back exploring the following references to being baptized in the ‘name’ of Jesus, explicitly: Acts 2:38 KJV, Acts 8:12 KJV, Acts 8:16 KJV, Acts 10:48 KJV, and Acts 19:5 KJV. Lets’ take a look at one or two:
Acts 2:38-39, KJV Then said Peter unto them (Acts 2:22, 23), Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus christ for the remission of sins, and he shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
First, consider Peter’s itinerary: (1) Repent, (2) be baptized, and (3) receive the Holy Ghost. Peter’s agenda was in synch with JTB’s in Matthew 3:11 KJV, Matthew 3:12 KJV. Peter corroborated JTB’s repentance and water baptism. By Peter including “in the name of Jesus Christ”, I gather Peter was invoking the authority Jesus extended in Matthew 18:18 KJV, Matthew 18:19 KJV, Matthew 18:20 KJV before His D, B, and R. But, listen to Peter’s last sentence from those verses: “Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” Who was that untoward generation, T6?
Besides being tagalongs behind that “untoward generation”, that instigated the crucifixion, Peter told those deluded Israelites to repent of what, T6? Who was that “untoward generation” that misled the Israelites to be tagalongs to the crucifixion? How did they Scripturally mislead those tagalong Israelites to believe Jesus was an impostor, and not the Messiah?
Even though there’s a close association between being reconciled in Isaiah’s prophesy that Jesus is Messiah, and being water baptized as JTB prepared the way for the Lord… water baptism, in and of itself, did not impart this new knowledge of Jesus being Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah. JTB’s preaching did. And, Peter said we are “…born again… by the word of God…” (1Peter 1:23 KJV). Water was not a key ingredient to this illumination, Scripture was. And, JTB was undoubtedly and keenly astute in Scripture (OT, btw).
After his sacrifice, he does establish baptism as a means of salvation.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
I certainly agree with this verse. Please consider JTB did “preach the gospel” in the wilderness; and, JTB established believers, from non-believers, knowing Jesus was Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah (Isaiah 65:9 KJV). They believed, and were water baptized. Water baptism publicly symbolized their repentance of those ‘non-believing’ Pharisaic renderings that Messiah had to be a Shelanite descendant of Abraham’s WIFE Keturah, via her “Canaanitess” granddaughter (1Chronicles 2:3), WIFE of Isaiah’s Messianic progenitor (Isaiah 65:9; Genesis 38:1, 2, 26; 1Corinthians 2:3; Numbers 26:20; John 8:33 KJV, John 8:41 KJV). I suggest Jesus corroborated JTB’s endeavor to pave His way. Do you consider JTB’s water baptized followers were not candidates for salvation had they never met Jesus? I think Jesus refuted that notion in Mark 16:15 KJV, and assured salvation is not an exclusive component of His two baptisms.
KAY: Those eight souls were saved by water from being in the ark. Then, I see no direct reference water baptism spiritually saves anyone, the ark did, and Jesus is our ark through His resurrection.
T6: I see what you’re saying, but if water baptism wasn't Peters point why even mention the water? Also, when he says baptism saves us he tells us what is happening during the baptism process in the hyphenated section -not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-
How would being HS baptized remove dirt from the body? Being baptized in water would do that, but he is telling us that is not what baptism is doing. By being water baptized we are making an appeal to God.
If we move the hyphenated section to the end we get this, which does not change the integrity of the sentence.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
I kinda prefer the KJV on this verse, T6. I don’t grasp this verse as saying, as I think you suggest, “we are making an appeal to God” through water baptism, as though we are seeking an appeal for God’s good conscience toward us for doing so. Water baptism in my mind is a reflection of our “good conscience toward God” (KJV). I hear Peter explaining water baptism signifies we have a good conscience about the righteousness of God, who destroyed those ‘sometime disobedient’ “sons of God” with the flood (Genesis 6:1, 2, 3, 44, 5, 6, 7), I beg your patience. Let’s take a closer look at Peter’s discussion from the full text recognizing I’m throwing an awful lot on the table, here:
1Peter 3:18-22, KJV (my { }, and caps) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he {through His resurrected quickened Spirit, not water baptism} might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh {John 10:17, 18}, but quickened by the Spirit {resurrected, the first fruit}: 19) By which {His quickened Spirit} ALSO {not just to the living via the Holy Ghost} he went and preached unto the spirits in prison {who were those spirits in prison?}; 20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein {the ark} few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
{the spirits in prison were those “sometime disobedient” “sons of God”, Sethites & Co. Luke 3:36, 37, 38, who hooked up with the “daughters of men”, the forbidden female progeny of Cain (Genesis 4:14, 15, 16), Genesis 6:1, 2, thereby precipitating the flood which drowned them and their progeny; save Noah, his three sons, and their four wives via the ark}
21) The like figure {the quickened Spirit of Christ Jesus is our ark} whereunto even baptism {John’s baptism of unique repentance believing Jesus is Messiah} doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh {not water baptism, per se}, but the answer of a good conscience toward God {can I trust God’s righteousness, since He drowned those “sons of God”, being I’m also “sometime disobedient”?}, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ {trusting Jesus as God’s ark at Judgment, similar to His flood}: 22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Now, I’m fully aware many think, as I used to think, those antediluvian “sons of God” in Genesis 6:1, 2, were Nephelim, fallen angels. Such is not the case, T6. To fully understand those in prison Peter was referring to were the “sometime disobedient” antediluvian “sons of God” (Genesis 6:1, 2), it’s imperative to gather the concept of Hebrew patrilineal mention, T6: grandsons, great grandsons, etc., were considered “sons” of a patriarch. For instance, in 1Chronicles 4:1, “The sons of Judah; Pharez (via Tamar, 1Chronicles 2:4), Hezron (Judah’s grandson via Pharez, 1Chronicles 2:5)…” and so forth. Such was Ezra’s roster of the ‘tribe’ of Judah btw, and didn’t include Judah’s elder progeny, Shelah, via his Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3, 1Chronicles 4:21 KJV, 1Chronicles 4:22 KJV).
Now, take a listen to Luke 3:36, 37, concluding in Luke 3:38 KJV: Noah was the son of Lamech… which was the son of Mathusala… which was the son of Enoch… which was the son of Seth… which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” By Hebrew patrilineal mention, those were all “sons of God”. Therefore, “the sons of God” in Genesis 6:1, 2 were the Sethites & Co. that were “sometime disobedient” hooking up with the forbidden “daughters of men” (female descendants of Cain), thereby precipitating the flood.
Do you think Noah’s siblings survived the flood (Genesis 5:30)? Where is God’s righteousness, there? I hear Peter saying the Son of God, in His quickened Spirit, went and preached resurrection to those “sons of God” (Genesis 6:1, 2) in prison who incurred the wrath of God, and drowned in the flood. Drowning was not eternal damnation for those “sons of God” (Genesis 8:20, 21) who were “sometime disobedient”. As those antediluvian “sons of God” were, the living are “sometime disobedient”, yet the living are likewise promised the hope of resurrection through Jesus’ quickened Spirit (John 14:26 KJV) in similar fashion (1Peter 1:23 KJV) as Jesus’ quickened Spirit (John 14:26 KJV) went and preached resurrection to those “sons of God” (Genesis 6:1, 2) in prison who were “sometime disobedient.” The Holy Ghost (John 14:26 KJV) speaks to the living in these “sometime disobedient” corruptible living flesh bodies; and, His quickened Spirit ALSO went and preached to the spirits of those “sometime disobedient” antediluvian “son of God” (Sethites & Co.) who drowned in the flood. Did Noah’s father Lamech die in the flood? Those eight souls were saved by water, via the ark, being obedient (Genesis 6:8, 9, 10, 18).
Those Sethite “sons of God” who were “sometime disobedient” hooking up with the daughters of Cain, and their progeny, drowned. In a sense, if those “sons of God” died by water, then those obedient eight souls were saved by water… by being aboard God’s ark that Noah and his sons faithfully built on dry land to God’s exact specifications. Water baptism is analogous to us being “sometime disobedient” and drowned, yet we too have the hope of resurrection just as Jesus’ quickened Spirit (John 14:26) went and preached resurrection to those antediluvian “sons of God” who were also “sometime disobedient”. I see Jesus’ quickened Spirit being the same as the Holy Ghost. Therefore, I certainly see our water baptism being analogous to those “sons of God” who drowned, but it was His quickened Spirit assuring the hope of resurrection that brought those “sometime disobedient” “sons of God” from their watery graves, prison. Through water baptism, in my fallible mind, we profess a “good conscience toward God” and his righteous handling (via His Son’s quickened Spirit) of those “sometime disobedient” “sons of God.” Surely the spiritual disposition of those “sometime disobedient” antediluvian “sons of God”, who drowned in God’s flood, was a concern in Biblical days. And, considering JTB’s Scriptural prowess, I suspect he addressed this concern to his followers, as well.
So, I absolutely see the parallel between baptism and a watery grave, T6; and, our blessed hope for resurrection is through His quickened Spirit, and not through water baptism. Water baptism a manner for us to signify a good conscience toward God knowing, through His Son’s quickened Spirit, God didn’t abandon those “sometime disobedient” Sethite prisoner “sons of God” from Genesis 6:1, 2, who drowned, while appreciating the paradox of Genesis 8:21, 22. The flood wasn’t the end of that type of sin committed by the “sons of God” who hooked up with the “daughters of men” (Cain) (Genesis 6:1, 2). Please consider Solomon and his numerous forbidden wives; Judah and his forbidden Canaanitess wife. Such “great trespass” is corroborated en masse by Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV with Jesus being the end descendant, and “seventy and sevenfold” inclusive generation (Genesis 4:24 KJV, Luke 3:38-23), of Almighty God’s “remnant to escape” (Ezra 9:8 KJV).
Perhaps I’ll continue responding to those verses you find corroborating water baptism being a requirement for salvation. Thank you again for your enduring patience, T6!
kayaker
