With your patience, I think it’s worthy to regroup the foundation of our discussion of baptisms, T6. Some of which has already been discussed by other posters, I do apologize. I’ve been off-line a fair bit, but did have time to study and develop my exhausting review, which is quite verbose… So, take a look at this post and let me know if you perceive enough association with baptism to inspire considering four others that are about this long, as best I can tell…
>John’s baptism was “with water” (that’s baptism ‘type’ #1).
>JTB said Jesus would subsequently baptize “with the Holy Ghost” (baptism ‘type’ #2), and
>Jesus would baptize “with fire” (baptism ‘type’ #3) (Matthew 3:11 KJV).
Jesus’ baptism “with fire” inherently had nothing to do with water. And, I think we agree Jesus’ baptism “with the Holy Ghost” was a waterless experience. However, I submit John’s water baptism (excluding his preaching) was (but not mandatorily so) a component of Jesus’ two baptisms either before, OR after being baptized with the HG and with fire. JTB’s water baptism following repentance was subsequent to his preaching which collectively ‘paved the way’ as JTB was “going before” Jesus: Luke 1:17 KJV, Matthew 11:10 KJV. Please reflect again on Matthew’s account of JTB:
Matthew 3:1-6, KJV In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4) And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
I hear water baptism being a physical gesture associated with a Spiritual confession. What were their sins, T6? JTB was telling folk to repent of their preconceived notion Jesus was not Isaiah’s ancestrally prophesied Messiah (Isaiah 65:9 KJV). Can you capture this? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this IS he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias (Isaiah 65:9 KJV)…” JTB’s preaching reconciled the sin of believing twisted Pharisee renderings of the OT such that Jesus was not the Christ of which pre-repentant Paul was also a deluded victim. And, JTB’s water baptism was a public declaration they were now believers that Jesus is Messiah through JTB’s preaching from Isaiah. And, I’ve much to say about those Scriptural misgivings. Perhaps we shall delve into this, now.
Judah, Isaiah’s prophesied progenitor of Messiah (Isaiah 65:9 KJV), sired three sons via his Canaanitess wife, and twin sons via his daughter-in-law, Tamar (1Chronicles 2:3, 4). Can you imagine an ongoing sibling rivalry between the Shelanites and the Pharzites (and Zarhites) (Numbers 26:20 KJV) as through whom Messiah would arrive? The quandary of the day was which of Judah’s two female co-progenitors was the ancestress of Messiah, although believers today presumptuously take that dilemma for granted, respectfully. Jesus was a descendant of Judah’s daughter-in-law Tamar, via their eldest twin son Pharez (Matthew 1:3 KJV, Luke 3:33 KJV). Jesus’ mere existence as a descendant of Pharez ‘legitimized’ Judah’s progeny via his daughter-in-law, Tamar. And, that ‘legitimization’ made mamzers (mamzerim, ‘bastard’ progeny of a forbidden marriage, Deuteronomy 23:2 KJV) out of Judah’s Shelanite descendants (Numbers 26:20). That was THE rather incendiary dilemma of the day, T6 (baptism with “fire” and ancestral “division”, Luke 12:49 KJV, Luke 12:50 KJV, Luke 12:51 KJV, Luke 12:52 KJV, Luke 12:53 KJV).
Please keep in mind Jesus’ ancestor Pharez was conceived and born out of wedlock (Genesis 38:24, 26, 29, 30) in Judah’s and Tamar’s relationship contrary to Leviticus 18:15 KJV, Leviticus 20:12 KJV, Leviticus 21:7, 9, 13, 14. Consequently, Jesus could not legally be Messiah; and, that was how (respectfully circumventing Jesus’ immaculate conception) those circumcised, corrupt Pharisee priests Scripturally misled the fatherless (Genesis 38:26, 29, 30) lost sheep of the house of Israel: Predominately the Pharzites (and Zarhites, Numbers 26:20) from whom Jesus descended (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:33), and to whom Jesus was sent (Matthew 10:5, 6, Matthew 15:22, 23, 24; John 20:21 KJV, John 20:22 KJV). Jesus’ immaculate conception begged the ancestral question, in fact: John 8:12 KJV, John 8:13 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, John 8:19 KJV, John 8:25 KJV; John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV, John 8:41 KJV, ‘whose ya daddy’? Jesus was a Pharzite Israelite Jew. Do you capture the Shelanite v. Pharzite (and Zarhite) rivalry in those days from those verses, T6?
Try reading Matthew’s account of JTB from the above reference again while keeping this sibling rivalry perspective in mind, T6. JTB wasn’t telling folk to repent of our notion of flesh sins. He was telling folk Jesus was Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah via Judah (Isaiah 65:9). Those folk had believed the twisted Pharisee inspired OT notion to the contrary that Messiah had to be a descendant of Judah and his Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3). Listen again to JTB: “Repent… For THIS is he that was spoken of by Isaiah.” Those who repented were convinced Jesus was Isaiah’s Messiah by JTB’s preaching of OT prophesy (feed my Sheep). And, JTB’s followers were then water baptized signifying their accurate delineation of Isaiah 65:9 KJV, most specifically.
Can you imagine the Shelanite descendants of Judah (Numbers 26:20), prophesied progenitor of Messiah (Isaiah 65:9 KJV), were waiting for Messiah to arrive via their lineage (endless genealogies)? Sure, and they infiltrated the Israelite synagogues misleading them with the same false hope. Consequent to his preaching in Isaiah, JTB’s followers were now believers that Jesus, a descendant of Judah and Tamar via their eldest twin son Pharez (Matthew 1:3 KJV, Luke 3:33 KJV), was Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah from Isaiah 65:9 KJV. Subsequent to this Scriptural illumination, JTB’s believers were water baptized to signify their Scripturally realigned mindset (repentance). Thereby, JTB’s followers were NOW prepared to be baptized (Matthew 3:11 KJV) with the Holy Ghost (John 14:16, 17, 26), AND with Jesus’ baptism of fire and ancestral division (Luke 12:49 KJV, Luke 12:50 KJV, Luke 12:51 KJV, Luke 12:52 KJV, Luke 12:53 KJV). Such is how JTB paved the way for Jesus to be Scripturally perceived as Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah; but, JTB’s endeavor, his preaching followed with water baptism, did not preempt Jesus’ two baptisms with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Jesus was not an imposter as JTB’s pre-repentant folk, like pre-repentant Paul, were so OT Scripturally deceived by those impostor Pharisee priests seeking Jesus’ crucifixion (Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; John 8:37, 28, 37, John 11:46 KJV, John 11:47 KJV, John 11:48 KJV, John 11:49 KJV, John 11:50 KJV, John 11:51 KJV, John 11:52 KJV, John 11:53 KJV…). Those circumcised non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV; Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7, 8) Pharisee priests were inherently proclaiming Jesus was not Messiah since Jesus was not a Shelanite descendant of Judah (Isaiah 65:9; Numbers 26:20 KJV) and his Canaanitess WIFE (1Chronicles 2:3; John 8:41 KJV). Judah’s Canaanitess WIFE (1Chronicles 2:3) was the granddaughter of Abraham’s WIFE, Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, Genesis 38:1, 2, 11). Judah’s Canaanite father-in-law Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2) was a ‘son’ of Abraham’s WIFE Keturah, but not a son of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4).
That is how (with my emphasis to the contrary) those corrupt, circumcised Shelanite Pharisee priests misled the fatherless (Genesis 38:26), ‘illegitimate’ lost sheep (the Pharzites and Zarhites, Genesis 38:24, 29, 30; Numbers 26:20), as discerned in John 8:33 KJV “We be Abraham’s seed” who were “…not born of fornication…” (John 8:41 KJV). Judah was married to his Canaanitess wife (Genesis 38:11, 1Chronicles 2:3) who was the granddaughter of Abraham’s WIFE (Genesis 25:1, 2) through her ‘son’ Shuah, father-in-law of Judah (Genesis 38:1, 2).
Can you fathom JTB’s preaching and water baptism of repentance had nothing to do with our traditional concept of flesh sins? Such would be quite a shallow and carnal rendering, and not at all what JTB was preaching preparing the way for Jesus, an authentic Pharzite Israelite Jew (Matthew 1:3; Luke 3:33), to THEN baptize JTB’s believers with the Holy Ghost (John 14:16, 17, 26), and with “fire” (and ancestral “division”): Matthew 3:11 KJV; Luke 12:49 KJV, LUKE 12:50 KJV, Luke 12:51 KJV, Luke 12:52 KJV, Luke 12:53 KJV.
To sum this up, there were three distinct baptisms Matthew spoke of in Matthew 3:11 KJV:
#1 baptism “with water” subsequent to repenting of twisted OT renderings preached by the Pharisees that Jesus could not be Messiah;
#2 baptism “with the Holy Ghost” (John 14:16, 17, 25, 26) which will “teach (us) all things, and bring all things to (our) remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”; and,
#3 baptism “with fire” (and ancestral “division”) (Matthew 3:11 KJV; Luke 12:49 KJV, Luke 12:50 KJV, Luke 12:51 KJV, Luke 12:52 KJV, Luke 12:53 KJV illuminating the complete ancestral component encompassing the ancestral dilemma of Jesus day.
The water baptism followed repentance for not believing Jesus was Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah via Judah and his daughter-in-law, Tamar. Rest assured, JTB was keenly astute in OT ancestry (Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9) corroborating his Scriptural testimony. His father Zacharias, and mother Elizabeth were no slackers (Luke 1:5 KJV, Luke 1:6 KJV)! All three were “filled with the Holy Ghost” (Luke 1:15 KJV, Luke 1:41, 42, Luke 1:66 KJV, Luke 1:67 KJV, Luke 1:68 KJV). John’s preaching of repentance established Jesus as Isaiah’s prophesied Messiah (Isaiah 65:9). But, don’t think for a minute those circumcised non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) Pharisee priests were simply non-believing slackers in the Books of Moses (Matthew 23:1, 2)! JTB’s repentant believers were then water baptized which thereby publicly signified (at least in JTB’s circles in the wilderness) that JTB effectively ‘paved the way’ establishing believers awaiting Jesus and His two baptisms. So, it’s easy to imagine, in my mind, what those corrupt Pharisee priests were up to in Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9, who JTB rebuked.
This being said, let me know if I’ve captured your interest to explore your specific previous points, before responding to this post… If not, no harm received.
kayaker
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and I did my best. I’m not sure I understand everything you are trying to tell me but there are some things that caused me to question where you’re coming from.