United Methodist Savage-Dammann

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by Turbo

Here's something else to consider: We read in the Gospels that Jesus spoke out against tax collectors as a group, directly and indirectly. Yet we also read that some tax collectors put their faith in him.

So now you're comparing Bob to Jesus?

I have an axe to grind?!

That's a good one!

I am bleeding to death from the well-sharpened axe that Bob plunged into my back.

I thought we were supposed to beat our swords into plowshares, and Bob's the one busy grinding his axe to razor-sharp precision.

May God have mercy on us all!

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

So now you're comparing Bob to Jesus?

:sigh: I knew that was coming. :down:

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Hey, maybe we should enter the narthex of the local UM church and overturn the tables there because that's what Jesus did to the moneychangers in the temple courtyard.

In other words, your comparison of Bob's words with the words of Jesus is ridiculous to say the least.

 

[aharvey]

Originally posted by Jabez

The more i think about it Turbo has a good point,and i dont know what to make of it yet.

There is a very interesting point here, though I'm not sure it's exactly the intended one: that the Bible should be taken literally except when it obviously doesn't make sense to interpret it literally.

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by aharvey

There is a very interesting point here, though I'm not sure it's exactly the intended one: that the Bible should be taken literally except when it obviously doesn't make sense to interpret it literally.

Or when such interpretation leads you to falsely condemned 8.5 million people to hell because they interpret the same Bible differently than you do, even though they worship the same God and teach Jesus Christ's crucifixion, death, and resurrection.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo

Wrong! I said "'All' quite commonly doesn't mean 'each and every, without exception,' even in Scripture."

How do we know Enyart was really using hyperbole? We don't so we have to take him at his words, within the context of his comments.

 

[st4him]

Here's something else to consider: We read in the Gospels that Jesus spoke out against tax collectors as a group, directly and indirectly. Yet we also read that some tax collectors put their faith in him.

Consider also the fact that, when a tax collector (Levi for example) put his faith in Jesus, HE STOPPED COLLECTING TAXES!

Interpretting the bible incorectly is not an excuse for sin.




God Bless,

st4him

 

[st4him]

I am not saying that this gives us the right to condemn either...I'm sorry if it came acrossed that way.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Christine

The UMC is becoming blatently un-Christian. I know you're probably wanting proof for all that I'm saying.

UnChristian, hardly, as they believe in the same triune God we do.

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1629



In fact, their offical website denounces homosexuality.

Since the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching, self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be accepted as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1324

Perhaps some better research, on your part, would dismiss your confusion.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by st4him

Consider also the fact that, when a tax collector (Levi for example) put his faith in Jesus, HE STOPPED COLLECTING TAXES!

Jesus did not require them to stop collecting taxes. He just told them not to sin in their work:

• Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"
  And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Luke 3:12-13

 

[st4him]

Are they allowed membership to the church and the privelages that go along with it? Not allowing them to be clergy is one thing, but not condoning the sin in there members is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[st4him]

Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus did not require them to stop collecting taxes. He just told them not to sin in their work:

• Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"
  And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Luke 3:12-13

My apologies, you are absolutely correct!




I do know however that whena homosexual embraces Jesus as their savior, they need to "go and sin no more". You cannot go on living in your sin and expect the rewards of a faithful servant.

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by st4him

Are they allowed membership to the church and the privelages that go along with it? Not allowing them to be clergy is one thing, but not condoning the sin in there members is where the rubber meets the road.

Often in the UMC we condemn sin by preaching grace to our fellow sinners. We find such preaching much more effective and Christ-like than condemning people to hell because they're gay or they drink too much.

 

[st4him]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

Often in the UMC we condemn sin by preaching grace to our fellow sinners. We find such preaching much more effective and Christ-like than condemning people to hell because they're gay or they drink too much.

I NEVER suggested condemning anyone. I asked, and you did not answer, wether or not they are allowed membership into the church and the benefits thereof. There is a difference between attending a church and being a member of that church. So again: Are homosexuals allowed membership into the church? Or is the line not drawn until you want to become clergy?

:doh:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by st4him

My apologies, you are absolutely correct!

Thank you.

I do know however that whena homosexual embraces Jesus as their savior, they need to "go and sin no more". You cannot go on living in your sin and expect the rewards of a faithful servant.

:up:

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by st4him

I NEVER suggested condemning anyone. I asked, and you did not answer, wether or not they are allowed membership into the church and the benefits thereof. There is a difference between attending a church and being a member of that church. So again: Are homosexuals allowed membership into the church? Or is the line not drawn until you want to become clergy?

:doh:

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1258

New members must "profess their faith in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; in Jesus Christ his only Son, and in the Holy Spirit." Other professions are usually included, such as pledging their time, presence, and gifts.

There is a difference between attending a church and being a member of that church.

Of course, the member pledges commitment to the church the attender does not, at least not officially.

It seems you feel the church is suppose to pick and choose which sins should prevent one from being part of a church. Where's grace in that? The Body of Christ is no longer a fledgling group of believers that the early church was, scared to death, literally, that the Roman authorities were going to catch them and kill them. The grace of Christ is more than sufficient for all of our sins. Let's not pretend that our sins are any different than someone who happens to be gay.

BTW, currently I am against ordination and marriage of gays, but I am afraid that I am on the losing side of this battle, for good or for ill. But even if gay marriage becomes accepted in this country legally and culturally, it will not matter one bit to my faith because I believe that Christ is Lord and is my Savior, not some legalistic adherence to the biblical text.

 

[st4him]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1258

It seems you feel the church is suppose to pick and choose which sins should prevent one from being part of a church. Where's grace in that? The Body of Christ is no longer a fledgling group of believers that the early church was, scared to death, literally, that the Roman authorities were going to catch them and kill them. The grace of Christ is more than sufficient for all of our sins. Let's not pretend that our sins are any different than someone who happens to be gay.

Once again, you are assuming something about me that is not true


However, the church does have a responsibility to keep the purity and sancity of the church. The bible does tell us to treat someone who does not respond to church discipline "as an unbeliever", and to "deliver such a one over to satan". There IS a difference between someone who has a problem with patience and a flaming homosexual, or someone who has a habit of killing people on the weekend. But, the big difference that should make us decide wether or not to allow someone to join the church is wether or not they are LIVING in this sin. Is this person fighting the good fight, or are they justifying their sin and thinking that they can go on sinning?

One mark of a true believer is that they continually look at their own heart and try to rid themselves of sin. Obviously we can not completely rid ourselves of sin in this world, but we should be ever trying to none the less.

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me and assume that I am legalistic just because you are pragmatic.

Hope you caught the JOKE.

I love you cur_deus_homo,

God Bless,
st4him

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by st4him

Once again, you are assuming something about me that is not true

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me and assume that I am legalistic just because you are pragmatic.

Hope you caught the JOKE.

I apologize. My sarcasm got the best of me. By no means am I arguing that "we" (people already in the church) should "let in anyone." Your examples point out the real issue: how do we "determine" when someone is "living" in sin, that is they commit the same sins over and over to the point where it is a lifestyle.

Believe it or not I am fairly "conservative" on the whole "gay" issue in this country and especially in the church. It breaks my heart that the UMC and other churches struggle with this issue so much. But as I said before I am afraid I am on the "losing side."

I admit I was getting a little testy on this thread because I listened to Enyart spew forth venom against the UMC for 20 minutes, and I heard very little, in any, of Christ in his tirade.

 

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by Turbo

:sigh: "All" quite commonly doesn't mean "each and every, without exception," even in Scripture. It's a figure of speech, a type of hyperbole. People use it all the time.

So they're united all together going to Hell on the wide road to Hell.

Sorry, damage is already done. Bob should repent.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

Sorry, damage is already done. Bob should repent.

Yes, he should. :up: