Understanding God’s election

[Dougcho]

Our God is a God of JUSTICE ... the unrighteous who sin are to be punished.
But, our God is a God of MERCY and GRACE (undeserved favor)
... so, He decided to save some of the human race.
Since they were/are totally incapable of choosing Jesus and the Gospel
(as per the OP) ... He had/has to give them the necessary faith to believe.

“And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He (Jesus) said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
Now, this can be explained in several ways:
--- possible through the free will believing in Jesus and Gospel
--- possible through the giving of necessary faith to believe
etc.

 

[Clete]

Our God is a God of JUSTICE ... the unrighteous who sin are to be punished.
But, our God is a God of MERCY and GRACE (undeserved favor)
... so, He decided to save some of the human race.
Since they were/are totally incapable of choosing Jesus and the Gospel
(as per the OP) ... He had/has to give them the necessary faith to believe.

“And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He (Jesus) said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
Now, this can be explained in several ways:
--- possible through the free will believing in Jesus and Gospel
--- possible through the giving of necessary faith to believe
etc.

Restating your doctrine does nothing to rebut the arguments that have been presented and that prove your doctrine false.\\

God is just.

Therefore Calvinism is FALSE!

 

[ttruscott]

So you're saying that this:
---Job 1:6 KJV — Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.---
Means that people (men) are presenting themselves before God?

No sir...you guess my meaning wrongly in this interpretation. Men do not generally present themselves before GOD except Paul who went to heaven and learned things he could not tell us about...unless they are elect who have died and have gone to be with HIM.

Unlike the garden story which presents as a real time situation on our earth (as does Rev 12:4-9) Job seems to have contradictions to this interpretation...which doesn't interfere with the power of this story.

And Satan is among the men?

Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. ... 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Yes, Satan is here.
That the reprobate are demons in human form is clear from Matt 13:38 ... The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

especially since you ignored my reference to how God made mankind on earth in the first place:

I have been studying the theory of our pre-conception existence since the mid 70s...I know the orthodox references, I just interpret them differently from orthodoxy. I know the references can be interpreted as per orthodoxy - more or less - but I think the pce interpretation stays more true to the tenor of the revealed truth of GOD than does orthodoxy.

Iow, I don't think these words mean what most think they mean...

 

[SwordOfTruth]

through the giving of necessary faith to believe

Faith, by its very definition is is the act of placing trust in some higher authority. If anything is "given" then there is no longer simply trust and you don't any longer have faith.

If I tell you I have £100 in my piggy bank you can take it on faith that it's in there based on you trusting me as an authority who speaks the truth.

The moment I open that piggy bank and show you the £100 the faith is gone and you now have evidential proof and fact.

You can't "give faith" as such. Faith is a choice and its a choice that by definition must be made on a set of unknowns.

 

[Derf]

Faith, by its very definition is is the act of placing trust in some higher authority. If anything is "given" then there is no longer simply trust and you don't any longer have faith.

If I tell you I have £100 in my piggy bank you can take it on faith that it's in there based on you trusting me as an authority who speaks the truth.

The moment I open that piggy bank and show you the £100 the faith is gone and you now have evidential proof and fact.

You can't "give faith" as such. Faith is a choice and its a choice that by definition must be made on a set of unknowns.

Not "unknowns", but "unrealizeds". Faith is that the higher power you trust will be able to accomplish the things He said He would.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Not "unknowns", but "unrealizeds". Faith is that the higher power you trust will be able to accomplish the things He said He would.

That's a good way of looking at it from the Christian/religious perspective. I was probably talking more generally with my definition.

 

[Clete]

Faith, by its very definition is is the act of placing trust in some higher authority. If anything is "given" then there is no longer simply trust and you don't any longer have faith.

Good grief! Is there anything that you believe that isn't stupidity?

This idiotic comment doesn't even follow by its own internal logic!

If I tell you I have £100 in my piggy bank you can take it on faith that it's in there based on you trusting me as an authority who speaks the truth.

The moment I open that piggy bank and show you the £100 the faith is gone and you now have evidential proof and fact.

What if you had only shown me a quid?

And, on what evidence would I have taken you as "an authority who speaks the truth"?

You can't "give faith" as such. Faith is a choice and its a choice that by definition must be made on a set of unknowns.

Your definition of faith is common, but it is not biblical and therefore not the Christian understanding of faith.

Faith is not belief in something is spite of a lack of evidence or in contradiction to available evidence. Quite the contrary in fact. The bible repeatedly talks about faith in terms of substance and evidence. The book of Hebrews specifically discusses faith in terms of substance and evidence. We learn in Romans that the reason unbelievers are without excuse is because God has shown them the evidence of not only his existence but his wisdom, power and majesty. Prophet after prophet proved God's existence and power through undeniable miracles. Jesus Himself performed miracle after miracle and even told His enemies, that if they don't believe what He says then believe the miracles that they've witnessed, "....that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." The ark of the covenant has three "witnesses" contained within it, one of which was a miracle (Arron's rod that budded) precisely because the truth is established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. And on and on I could go!

Biblical faith has nothing to do with mindless beliefism, as the rest of the world would have one think. Instead, it is about one's willingness to accept the testimony of the substantive evidence that is, pressed down, shaken together, and running over all around us, everywhere we look.

 

[Derf]

That's a good way of looking at it from the Christian/religious perspective. I was probably talking more generally with my definition.

I think you will find the definition holds even in secular topics. Faith includes stuff like sitting down in a chair--you expect it will hold you. Sometimes our faith can be placed in untested powers (like a chair you've just constructed), but not at all unknowingly. Sometimes the powers are not worthy of our faith (the chair won't support you, but you are ignorant of its lack of power).

That's why God showed the ancient Hebrews His power to divide the sea and defeat the Egyptians before He asked them to covenant with Him.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Jesus Himself performed miracle after miracle and even told His enemies, that if they don't believe what He says then believe the miracles that they've witnessed,

That we personally don't understand how a particular thing was done/achieved does not make it a "miracle" except in semantics terms. Depends perhaps on your definition of "miracle".

You could go back in time with a box of matches and create fire at will in front of cavemen and they might deem it was a "miracle", as to them it is something not understood, but to you or I it's no miracle, just something very understandable. How you personally use that "power" over cavemen comes down to your moral compass. You could use it to pretend you were a "god" and try and subdue them, or you could explain to them how it was done and indeed how they could replicate it.

I personally interpret the Bible stories of Jesus' miracles as the description of an alchemist using the great alchemy products, elixirs, powerful substances and so on. On that basis I can certainly respect him as an alchemist, an adept, a very competent person in that philosophical/scientific discipline and see that he used his alchemical abilities for good deeds. When I read the many 1000s of alchemy texts spanning centuries and learn from them what the White and Red Stones can do, I can see the same synergy in the Bible with Jesus's miracles. It all makes sense. For me, Jesus was unquestionably an alchemist and he taught his disciples the secrets of that craft.

Going back to the issue of faith and with that alchemy knowledge in hand, it's somewhat difficult to believe the religious interpretations of the stories which seek to conceal or ignore Jesus's alchemy skills.

 

[Clete]

That we personally don't understand how a particular thing was done/achieved does not make it a "miracle" except in semantics terms. Depends perhaps on your definition of "miracle".

In fact, the definition of a miracle is an event that CANNOT be explained by normal physical processes. Miracles are SUPER natural, by definition.

You could go back in time with a box of matches and create fire at will in front of cavemen and they might deem it was a "miracle", as to them it is something not understood, but to you or I it's no miracle, just something very understandable. How you personally use that "power" over cavemen comes down to your moral compass. You could use it to pretend you were a "god" and try and subdue them, or you could explain to them how it was done and indeed how they could replicate it.

I personally interpret the Bible stories of Jesus' miracles as the description of an alchemist using the great alchemy products, elixirs, powerful substances and so on.

That's because you are literally an idiot.

Regardless, my point stands. Your secular definition of faith has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.

On that basis I can certainly respect him as an alchemist, an adept, a very competent person in that philosophical/scientific discipline and see that he used his alchemical abilities for good deeds. When I read the many 1000s of alchemy texts spanning centuries and learn from them what the White and Red Stones can do, I can see the same synergy in the Bible with Jesus's miracles. It all makes sense. For me, Jesus was unquestionably an alchemist and he taught his disciples the secrets of that craft.

Going back to the issue of faith and with that alchemy knowledge in hand, it's somewhat difficult to believe the religious interpretations of the stories which seek to conceal or ignore Jesus's alchemy skills.

There is no religious interpretation involved in the fact that Jesus repeatedly claimed to be God nor could your magic elixirs explain how He made people who had been blind from birth see for the first time, not to mention His having raised people and Himself from the dead.

If Jesus was a magician playing tricks, then he was a lying lunatic and deserves no respect of any kind.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

In fact, the definition of a miracle is an event that CANNOT be explained by normal physical processes. Miracles are SUPER natural, by definition.

The definition is a poor one for quite obviously "normal physical processes" simple means those processes of Physics which we currently understand. Hence the apparent destructive health zapping nature of a lump of Uranium 100s of years ago would have been deemed "not normal physics" because at that time we didn't know what radiation was.

The only real definition of a miracle is just an event that a given witness currently can not understand due to lack of knowledge and/or intelligence.

nor could your magic elixirs explain how He made people who had been blind from birth see for the first time, not to mention His having raised people and Himself from the dead.

First point to note, the Stones of alchemy are not "magic" in any way whatsoever. They are science, Physics. Chemistry. They simply happen to involve parts of those sciences that have not generally been revealed to the public.

If Jesus was a magician playing tricks, then he was a lying lunatic and deserves no respect of any kind.

That's not remotely how I see it. He was utilising high level physics/chemistry way above the people's knowledge and in the wrong hands that's incredibly dangerous, more than you could fathom. So he did what he did genuinely and in his own way and kept the secrets for himself and his disciples. He was thus responsible with the power he had at his fingertips. So no, not a liar nor a lunatic.

You may think him a liar for referring to certain terms but that's because you don't understand the allegorical terms he used.

 

[Clete]

The definition is a poor one for quite obviously "normal physical processes" simple means those processes of Physics which we currently understand. Hence the apparent destructive health zapping nature of a lump of Uranium 100s of years ago would have been deemed "not normal physics" because at that time we didn't know what radiation was.

That's the reason that I added that miracles are SUPER natural, by definition.

The only real definition of a miracle is just an event that a given witness currently can not understand due to lack of knowledge and/or intelligence.

Stupidity!

That flatly is NOT the definition of miracle, not at least by any biblical or Christian standard.

First point to note, the Stones of alchemy are not "magic" in any way whatsoever.

Yeah, sure.

They are science, Physics. Chemistry. They simply happen to involve parts of those sciences that have not generally been revealed to the public.

You are definitely a lunatic.

That's not remotely how I see it.

No one cares about how you see it. It isn't a matter of opinion.

He was utilising high level physics/chemistry way above the people's knowledge and in the wrong hands that's incredibly dangerous, more than you could fathom.

Even if that were true, it isn't relevant to His having claimed to be God and curing congenital blindness and raising people and Himself from the dead.

So he did what he did genuinely and in his own way and kept the secrets for himself and his disciples.

And claimed to be God and rose from the dead.

He was thus responsible with the power he had at his fingertips. So no, not a liar nor a lunatic.
You may think him a liar for referring to certain terms but that's because you don't understand the allegorical terms he used.

Only lying lunatics claim to be God unless they are, in fact, God.

If he was God then you're a big trouble. If He was not then He was a liar and a lunatic and nothing about him can be trusted and your idiotic alchemy arguments go flying out the window. There isn't any third option.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

That's the reason that I added that miracles are SUPER natural, by definition.

And that's still incorrect for nothing was above or beyond the laws of nature that happened. It's just that you and many others don't yet understand what Nature can do or how it's wonders can be followed and exploited by humans. Curing blindness is not remotely supernatural. Curing disease is not remotely supernatural. Restoring life to a very recently (< 3 days) deceased person is not supernatural.
Nature is a wonderful thing. Your body is an incredibly clever thing. It knows how to heal itself. But it can't do so if its healing mechanisms have been obstructed nor if it is lacking in a particular "fuel" it needs to do its job. Jesus had that "fuel" and was able to administer it to others and thereby achieve what seemed like miracles to very simple people.

That flatly is NOT the definition of miracle, not at least by any biblical or Christian standard.

"Miracle" is a word of the English language. It's definition therefore comes from works that deal with English language, not from religious works.

If you want to know what a Dandelion is you don't go looking in the Ford Escort Haynes Car Manual !!

The definition of "miracle" is given in an English dictionary, nowhere else as it is a language term.

Yeah, sure.


You are definitely a lunatic.


No one cares about how you see it. It isn't a matter of opinion.


Even if that were true, it isn't relevant to His having claimed to be God and curing congenital blindness and raising people and Himself from the dead.


And claimed to be God and rose from the dead.


Only lying lunatics claim to be God unless they are, in fact, God.

If he was God then you're a big trouble. If He was not then He was a liar and a lunatic and nothing about him can be trusted and your idiotic alchemy arguments go flying out the window. There isn't any third option.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

That's the reason that I added that miracles are SUPER natural, by definition.

And that's still incorrect for nothing was above or beyond the laws of nature that happened. It's just that you and many others don't yet understand what Nature can do or how it's wonders can be followed and exploited by humans. Curing blindness is not remotely supernatural. Curing disease is not remotely supernatural. Restoring life to a very recently (< 3 days) deceased person is not supernatural.
Nature is a wonderful thing. Your body is an incredibly clever thing. It knows how to heal itself. But it can't do so if its healing mechanisms have been obstructed nor if it is lacking in a particular "fuel" it needs to do its job. Jesus had that "fuel" and was able to administer it to others and thereby achieve what seemed like miracles to very simple people.

That flatly is NOT the definition of miracle, not at least by any biblical or Christian standard.

"Miracle" is a word of the English language. It's definition therefore comes from works that deal with English language, not from religious works.

If you want to know what a Dandelion is you don't go looking in the Ford Escort Haynes Car Manual !!

The definition of "miracle" is given in an English dictionary, nowhere else as it is a language term.

A miracle "an event that APPEARS inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."

The fact that, to you, or to any current scientist it APPEARS to be inexplicable by the laws of nature, in no ways means IT IS inexplicable. It simply means it is CURRENTLY inexplicable by a given people of a given time period. Nothing more.

Even if that were true, it isn't relevant to His having claimed to be God and curing congenital blindness and raising people and Himself from the dead.

It's completely relevant because the Stones of alchemy absolutely can cure blindness and/or raise recently deceased people. Go read any of the 1000s of alchemy texts and you'll read all about the benefits the Stone bestows on humans.

Assume for one minute that Jesus was in fact an Alchemist and did have the wondrous Stone of alchemy which gives one the ability to transmute one matter into another and which heals a man from all impurity and illness. Everything Jesus did fits with this assumption purely from the story/narrative perspective, but when you add to that the plethora of scripture verses that talk about the Stone and the processes by which it is created and the benefits the Stone bestows on man, then you have right there a solid foundation for that belief. Occam's Razor suggests that this simple solution is far more likely than the religious concepts of magical hocus pocus miracles.

Only lying lunatics claim to be God unless they are, in fact, God.

The Bible is full of allegories. At some points in the Bible Jesus himself is the allegory. What you believe God to be and what God actually is creates the dilemma you have there.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Even if that were true, it isn't relevant to His having claimed to be God and curing congenital blindness and raising people and Himself from the dead.

Just to further iterate the point in regards to healing powers of the Stone which I believe Jesus had here are some quotes from various alchemy texts which describe the healing (and other) benefits:

"He that has once found this Art, can have nothing else in all the world to wish for, than that he may be
allowed to serve his God in peace and safety. He will not care for pomp or dazzling outward show. But if
he lived a thousand years, and daily entertained a million people, he could never come to want, since he has
at hand the means of indefinitely multiplying the Stone both in weight and virtue, and thus of changing all
imperfect metals in the world into gold. In the second place, he has it in his power to make stones and
diamonds far more precious than any that are naturally procured. In the third place, he has an Universal
Medicine, with which he can cure every conceivable disease, and, indeed, as to the quantity of his
Medicine, he might heal all sick people in the world. Now to the King Eternal, Immortal, and sole
Almighty, be everlasting praise for these His unspeakable gifts and invaluable treasures. I exhort all that
possess this Treasure, to use it to the praise of God, and the good of their neighbours, in order that they may
not at the last day be eternally doomed for their ingratitude to their Creator"

An Open Entrance to the Closed Palace of the King


"You are foolish and ignorant, if you do not know that this precious thing which you seek is, to the created mind, the
greatest mystery of Nature, and that it is compounded by heavenly influences — and thus has power to heal
and deliver men from all diseases, and to remove the imperfection of the base metals"

A Demonstration of Nature - Jean De Mung


“He who has this has all things, and wants no other aid. For in it are all temporal happiness, bodily health, and
earthly fortune. It is the spirit of the fifth substance, a Fount of all Joys (beneath the rays of the moon), the
Supporter of Heaven and Earth, the Mover of Sea and Wind, the Outpourer of Rain, upholding the
strength of all things, an excellent spirit above Heavenly and other spirits, giving Health, Joy, Peace,
Love; driving away Hatred and Sorrow, bringing in Joy, expelling all Evil, quickly healing all Diseases,
destroying Poverty and Misery, leading to all good things, giving man his heart’s desire, bringing to the
pious earthly honour and long life, but to the wicked who misuse it, Eternal Punishment”.

A Golden and Blessed Casket Of Natures Marvels - Benedictus Figulus



"if you desire to make a Medicine upon Metals, you must determinate or ferment it with common Gold in Filings, in which
Determination it will vitrify, and then you will have an incomparable Medicine, capable to transmute all
imperfect Metals into the purst Gold, according to the Doctrine of all the Philosophers, though our self
never designed any thing, but an universal Remedy for the Cure of all curable Diseases, incident to Human
Bodies, as is well known to our Friends, who have enjoyed the Benefit of these our Labors."

Aphorisms Of Urbigerus

 

[marke]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 15:16).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.

Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

God is not willing that any should perish.

 

[Clete]

And that's still incorrect for nothing was above or beyond the laws of nature that happened.

Stupidity.

Curing congenital blindness in 30 seconds or less is in accordance with the laws of nature?

Raising people from the dead is in accordance with the laws of nature?

Raising one's self from the dead is in accordance with the laws of nature?

You're too stupid for words!

It's just that you and many others don't yet understand what Nature can do or how it's wonders can be followed and exploited by humans. Curing blindness is not remotely supernatural.

Of course it is!

Curing disease is not remotely supernatural. Restoring life to a very recently (< 3 days) deceased person is not supernatural.

Lazarus had been dead for four days and his body was decaying to the point of stench!

A group of men threw a dead man into Elisha’s tomb and when the man’s body touches Elisha’s bones, he comes back to life and stands up.

Dozens of long dead people were raised from the dead at Jesus' crucifixion.

Jesus rose from the dead by his own power!!

Nature is a wonderful thing. Your body is an incredibly clever thing. It knows how to heal itself. But it can't do so if its healing mechanisms have been obstructed nor if it is lacking in a particular "fuel" it needs to do its job. Jesus had that "fuel" and was able to administer it to others and thereby achieve what seemed like miracles to very simple people.

You are literally a raving lunatic!

"Miracle" is a word of the English language. It's definition therefore comes from works that deal with English language, not from religious works.
If you want to know what a Dandelion is you don't go looking in the Ford Escort Haynes Car Manual !!

The definition of "miracle" is given in an English dictionary, nowhere else as it is a language term.

Stupidity.

Magic tricks are not miracles and neither is the use of technology.

"Miracle" is an English word but the purpose of words is to convey an idea. This is what makes translations from one language to another possible. And in the context of biblical Christianity a miracle is something done by the super natural power of God. Even if the miracle has to do with nature (i.e. a flood or plague or whatever), it is an event that would not have happened without super natural intervention. Whether the event is entirely super natural (e.g. the Sun standing still in Joshua 10) or merely has a direct super natural cause (i.e. floods, plagues, healings, etc), miracles, by definition, are to one degree or another, super natural.

Further, in keeping with the point I've been making, if your baseless conjecture was correct and all that Jesus was doing was using some secret technology and he was merely allowing those around him to think he was performing miracles from God and that he himself was God, then he was a nut case who was lying to them.

 

[Clete]

Just to further iterate the point in regards to healing powers of the Stone which I believe Jesus had here are some quotes from various alchemy texts which describe the healing (and other) benefits:

"He that has once found this Art, can have nothing else in all the world to wish for, than that he may be
allowed to serve his God in peace and safety. He will not care for pomp or dazzling outward show. But if
he lived a thousand years, and daily entertained a million people, he could never come to want, since he has
at hand the means of indefinitely multiplying the Stone both in weight and virtue, and thus of changing all
imperfect metals in the world into gold. In the second place, he has it in his power to make stones and
diamonds far more precious than any that are naturally procured. In the third place, he has an Universal
Medicine, with which he can cure every conceivable disease, and, indeed, as to the quantity of his
Medicine, he might heal all sick people in the world. Now to the King Eternal, Immortal, and sole
Almighty, be everlasting praise for these His unspeakable gifts and invaluable treasures. I exhort all that
possess this Treasure, to use it to the praise of God, and the good of their neighbours, in order that they may
not at the last day be eternally doomed for their ingratitude to their Creator"

An Open Entrance to the Closed Palace of the King


"You are foolish and ignorant, if you do not know that this precious thing which you seek is, to the created mind, the
greatest mystery of Nature, and that it is compounded by heavenly influences — and thus has power to heal
and deliver men from all diseases, and to remove the imperfection of the base metals"

A Demonstration of Nature - Jean De Mung


“He who has this has all things, and wants no other aid. For in it are all temporal happiness, bodily health, and
earthly fortune. It is the spirit of the fifth substance, a Fount of all Joys (beneath the rays of the moon), the
Supporter of Heaven and Earth, the Mover of Sea and Wind, the Outpourer of Rain, upholding the
strength of all things, an excellent spirit above Heavenly and other spirits, giving Health, Joy, Peace,
Love; driving away Hatred and Sorrow, bringing in Joy, expelling all Evil, quickly healing all Diseases,
destroying Poverty and Misery, leading to all good things, giving man his heart’s desire, bringing to the
pious earthly honour and long life, but to the wicked who misuse it, Eternal Punishment”.

A Golden and Blessed Casket Of Natures Marvels - Benedictus Figulus



"if you desire to make a Medicine upon Metals, you must determinate or ferment it with common Gold in Filings, in which
Determination it will vitrify, and then you will have an incomparable Medicine, capable to transmute all
imperfect Metals into the purst Gold, according to the Doctrine of all the Philosophers, though our self
never designed any thing, but an universal Remedy for the Cure of all curable Diseases, incident to Human
Bodies, as is well known to our Friends, who have enjoyed the Benefit of these our Labors."

Aphorisms Of Urbigerus

Laughable insanity!!!! Hopefully no one bothers to read it.

Jesus didn't just heal people, He rose HIMSELF from the dead!

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”​

 

[Derf]

Jesus didn't just heal people, He rose HIMSELF from the dead!

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Be careful. The logic you're using suggests Jesus killed Himself, too. We know that didn't happen. So the wording of the verse, using "power" (sometimes translated "authority") is not that He was able to kill Himself, but that He offered His life willingly. And the power to take it up again says that He knew He would rise again and had assurance from the Father it would happen.

But I really appreciate your use of the miracles of resurrection in old and new testaments as evidence of supernatural power at work.

 

[Clete]

Be careful. The logic you're using suggests Jesus killed Himself, too. We know that didn't happen.

How so? Show me the syllogism.

Further, it isn't my logic. Jesus laid down His own life. He did it willingly and had He not submitted Himself to it, no one would have been able to play a finger on Him.

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

So the wording of the verse, using "power" (sometimes translated "authority") is not that He was able to kill Himself, but that He offered His life willingly. And the power to take it up again says that He knew He would rise again and had assurance from the Father it would happen.

By what logic does it mean that?

All three members of the Trinity were involved in His resurrection, which makes sense since they are all One anyway.

God the Father​

• Galatians 1:1: “Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.”
• Acts 2:24: “But God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

God the Son​

• John 2:19: “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’”
• John 10:17-18: “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

God the Holy Spirit​

• Romans 8:11: “If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”
• 1 Peter 3:18: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit.”

In other words, speaking of Jesus raising Himself from the dead is both biblical and NOT exclusive of either the Father or the Spirit being equally involved.

But I really appreciate your use of the miracles of resurrection in old and new testaments as evidence of supernatural power at work.

And that is the real point here.

SoT acts as if there isn't any event in the bible that transcends nature, which is just nonsense.