Understanding God’s election

SwordOfTruth

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If He were to explain that only those He chooses will be saved,
the elect/called/chosen would not be so eager to respond.
There would be a hesitancy to respond.

Indeed, those among the "elect" with any shred of morals would recognise they had been following a complete imposter who is obviously neither all-powerful or all-loving. Some elect of course, the immoral pious pompous fools would be dead chuffed that they were "in the club" and everyone else was destined to perish, but then the world has always had its share of throughly immature unspiritual nohopers, most of them are in the secret societies loving the increased status and standing they think it gives them. Honestly your belief system is so flawed and full of holes I can't understand why anyone with an iota of critical thinking could possibly give it the time of day.
 

JudgeRightly

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Obviously, God wants it to appear that anyone can be saved.

If not everyone can be saved, then that just makes God out to be a liar.

That gives the elect/called/chosen reason to respond positively to the Gospel.
If He were to explain that only those He chooses will be saved,
the elect/called/chosen would not be so eager to respond.
There would be a hesitancy to respond.

Because no rational person could easily understand that if only some people are saved, and not others, based on nothing but a unilateral decision on God's part, that God is therefore not worthy of love.

Again, you give the "unelect" the perfect exuse against God, "I was never chosen, because God didn't love me."
 

JudgeRightly

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Indeed, those among the "elect" with any shred of morals would recognise they had been following a complete imposter who is obviously neither all-powerful or all-loving. Some elect of course, the immoral pious pompous fools would be dead chuffed that they were "in the club" and everyone else was destined to perish, but then the world has always had its share of throughly immature unspiritual nohopers, most of them are in the secret societies loving the increased status and standing they think it gives them. Honestly your belief system is so flawed and full of holes I can't understand why anyone with an iota of critical thinking could possibly give it the time of day.

@Dougcho This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Such a doctrine does not paint God as loving.

It paints Him as capricious, arbitrary, and spiteful, and gives opportunity to the wicked to mock not only you, but God.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The whosoevers are mentioned to provide people with hope of salvation.
The whosoevers are mentioned because they exist, and God loves them, you know...the world.
Being an evangelist, I know that people would not be interested
... if their free-will choice might NOT be honored by God.
Let's preach the Gospel and see who jumps all over it.
Yet that's exactly what Paul did. Some jumped all over it, and some jumped all over Paul.
The NT says it is not possible for those not chosen/called to believe.
The OP says it also (see points 1 and 2 for the reasons).
But they are chosen, as you already admitted, based on the fact they believe. Therefore your sentence is correct, but not before the foundation of the world.
 

SwordOfTruth

Active member
The whosoevers are mentioned because they exist, and God loves them, you know...the world.

So now you're suggesting that God loves all those people but he's not going to save them because they're not the "elect" or "chosen"

I can't help but feel you've chosen to worship a monster. You are surely in error.
 

Dougcho

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millions of Christians who will tetsify that they have never received any kind of special calling or gift of faith.
People often don't know how they came to believe something.
Don't you know that the spirit world
can (and do) put thoughts in your mind ...
God and His angels, and Satan and his demons.
Are you related to the one-and-only R/D?
 

Dougcho

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The whosoevers are mentioned because they exist, and God loves them, you know...the world.
The whosoevers are those who believe (e.g. John 3:16).
They have been given the faith necessary to believe,
which overcomes their total inability to believe
as per the 2 reasons at the top of the OP.
 

Derf

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The whosoevers are those who believe (e.g. John 3:16).
They have been given the faith necessary to believe,
which overcomes their total inability to believe
as per the 2 reasons at the top of the OP.
So you've said, but that's not what "whosoever" means. "Whosoever" means that salvation is available to those who choose to believe, not just to the elite group. That's why Gentiles were given the gospel, in spite of the Jews thinking it was just for them (the "elect").
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Huh?? How does that make sense? Isn't our "lives" everything we do in our lifetimes, including birth, death, sin, faith, etc.?
Our LIVES started when we were sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:26-39, but our EXISTENCE started before the foundation of the world which ALL the sons of GOD witnessed, Job 38:7, after we had each committed to faith in HIM as our LORD and saviour or in the complete rejection of HIM as a liar and a false god by our free will, uncoerced by any decree from GOd nor any enslavement to sin like on earth.

You think people were reprobated before they existed and before sin occurred?

ok.
No, that is the inevitable conundrum created by the hypothesis that we are created on earth and some are reprobated or elected to salvation with no free will decision of their own before their existence before the foundation of the world.

No, I believe that we existed before our lives on earth and during that time everyone made their decision of faith for YHWH or against HIM which is the base is for our election to salvation if a person who put their faith in HIM should ever sin while those who repudiated HIM as a liar and a false god were condemned on the spot as it says about every person on earth: believers, those with faith in HIM, are never condemned for their choices to sin while those who never believed are condemned already ! Jn 3:18! Already before what? Already before they are sown into this world!
 

Clete

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So you've said, but that's not what "whosoever" means. "Whosoever" means that salvation is available to those who choose to believe, not just to the elite group. That's why Gentiles were given the gospel, in spite of the Jews thinking it was just for them (the "elect").
Quite so! The term implies the concept of "potential". The word "whosoever" in John 3:16 suggests an open, indefinite invitation rather than a predetermined or exclusive group. In the original Greek, the phrase "πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων" (pas ho pisteuōn) translates roughly to "whoever believes," which conveys a broad potentiality. Anyone who comes to believe is included based on that belief, not the other way around. They don't believe because they're already in the group, they're in the group because (i.e. if and when) they believe.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Our LIVES started when we were sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:26-39, but our EXISTENCE started before the foundation of the world which ALL the sons of GOD witnessed, Job 38:7, after we had each committed to faith in HIM as our LORD and saviour or in the complete rejection of HIM as a liar and a false god by our free will, uncoerced by any decree from GOd nor any enslavement to sin like on earth.
In other words, your doctrine makes our life on earth of no account...just like Calvinism.
No, that is the inevitable conundrum created by the hypothesis that we are created on earth and some are reprobated or elected to salvation with no free will decision of their own before their existence before the foundation of the world.
It seems like you are stuck trying to refute Calvinism without a reasonable alternative.
No, I believe that we existed before our lives on earth and during that time everyone made their decision of faith for YHWH or against HIM which is the base is for our election to salvation if a person who put their faith in HIM should ever sin while those who repudiated HIM as a liar and a false god were condemned on the spot as it says about every person on earth: believers, those with faith in HIM, are never condemned for their choices to sin while those who never believed are condemned already ! Jn 3:18! Already before what? Already before they are sown into this world!
Of course all people are condemned to death, but it's because of Adam's sin and the consequences that come from that, not from some unknown mystery time before the world began. Man was created on the earth and became a living soul at the time God breathed into him the breath of life.
 

Clete

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Of course all people are condemned to death, but it's because of Adam's sin and the consequences that come from that, not from some unknown mystery time before the world began. Man was created on the earth and became a living soul at the time God breathed into him the breath of life.
While agree with the gist of your post, I have to point out that people are not condemned because of Adam's sin but because of their own. This is not only a clear principle in the Old Testament but it is a major aspect of the gospel that many people miss.

Romans 15:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)​
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​
Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:​
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?​
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.​
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just

And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

The entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 goes on like that, repeating the same point in various ways. God does not punish people because of the sins committed by their ancestors.
 

Dougcho

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If not everyone can be saved, then that just makes God out to be a liar.
Because no rational person could easily understand that if only some people are saved, and not others,
based on nothing but a unilateral decision on God's part, that God is therefore not worthy of love.
Again, you give the "unelect" the perfect exuse against God, "I was never chosen, because God didn't love me."

What do you think about God saying, paraphrased:
"I will bless those I want to, and I will curse those I want to."

Theologans such as R. C. Sproul believe that ...
"Salvation is all about God, from beginning to end."

God the Father gives us the faith to believe.
God the Holy Spirit sanctifies us unto holiness.
God the Son intercedes for us before the Father.
The Triune Godhead makes sure that the elect-called-chosen get to heaven.
 
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ttruscott

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In other words, your doctrine makes our life on earth of no account...just like Calvinism.
We all became sinners by our own free will decision to sin against HIM...does that sound like Calvinism?

On earth, elect sinners live lives that are firmly within the theological scope of Hebrews 12:5-11 and Matt 13:27-30...
 

JudgeRightly

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What do you think about God saying, paraphrased:
"I will bless those I want to, and I will curse those I want to."

Whom does God want to show mercy?

Those who call on Him in repentance and believe.

How shall they call if they haven't believed?

How shall they believe if they haven't heard?

How shall they hear without a preacher?

Theologans such as R. C. Sproul believe that ...
"Salvation is all about God, from beginning to end."

No one denies that.

The problem is that faith is not God's action, it's man's RESPONSE to God's action.

God the Father gives us the faith to believe.


God the Holy Spirit sanctifies us unto holiness.
God the Son intercedes for us before the Father.
The Triune Godhead makes sure that the elect-called-chosen get to heaven.

Supra.
 

Right Divider

Body part
We all became sinners by our own free will decision to sin against HIM...does that sound like Calvinism?

On earth, elect sinners live lives that are firmly within the theological scope of Hebrews 12:5-11 and Matt 13:27-30...
We are not Israel.
We are a new creature, the body of Christ.
 

Clete

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What do you think about God saying, paraphrased:
"I will bless those I want to, and I will curse those I want to."
Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to Israel! The context is about the nation of Israel and doesn't support the idea that God arbitrarily chooses anyone, much less specific individuals.
Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.​
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​


Theologans such as R. C. Sproul believe that ...
"Salvation is all about God, from beginning to end."
In the way he means it, Sproul is wrong here. God has done the work, for sure but salvation is offered to us and it is up to us to accept it or reject it.

God CANNOT force someone to love Him. I'm not really sure what it is about that simple concept that Calvinists don't understand. Their whole system strips the concept of love of all meaning and that single point falsifies the whole thing.


God the Father gives us the faith to believe.
If so (in the way you mean it), both faith and belief are meaningless. We're simply puppets on strings.

God the Holy Spirit sanctifies us unto holiness.
True!

God the Son intercedes for us before the Father.
True!

The Triune Godhead makes sure that the elect-called-chosen get to heaven.
True, but not in the way you mean it. Calvinism has redefined nearly every word in the entire Christian lexicon to such a degree that normal discourse is all but impossible. The term "elect" is no exception.

In short, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest payment (a guarantee) securing our deliverance to the Day of Redemption. What happens after that is somewhat up in the air but that's a discussion for another time.
 
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Dougcho

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God the Father gives us the faith to believe.
God the Holy Spirit sanctifies us unto holiness.
God the Son intercedes for us before the Father.
The Triune Godhead makes sure that the elect-called-chosen get to heaven.

“And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He (Jesus) said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:26-27)
 
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Dougcho

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God CANNOT force someone to love Him. I'm not really sure what it is about that simple concept that Calvinists don't understand.
Their whole system strips the concept of love of all meaning and that single point falsifies the whole thing.
After a person is born again, he/she develops a love for God ... all 3 of the Triune Godhead.
 
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