Understanding God’s election

[JudgeRightly]

A person can be given the faith to believe,

Not what Scripture says.

There's no magical fairy dust (figurative) that God uses to harden or soften people's hearts.

God doesn't force people to believe.

He can send the Holy Spirit to work on people's hearts, but ultimately, they are the ones who either harden their hearts against the truth, or open up to it.

like Lydia was,

Again, not what Scripture says.

and then refuse to believe, e.g. because he/she prefers to live in his/her sin.

Which completely flies in the face of Calvinism.

People do not accept or reject God because God determined them to do so before the foundations of the earth.

They accept or reject God because they have a will that God gave them to be able to make such a choice.

 

[ttruscott]

how do you know that you weren't chosen before the foundation of the world to reject the faith later in life and die and go to hell?

I agree that our election and the reprobation of others was before the foundation of the world but I totally disagree with the op's reasons for the election of some and not others...

We chose our own FATE by faith while our LIVES are predetermined by GOD to bring us to the fulfillment of our self chosen fate.

Verses like Luke 1:4, Proverbs 22:21 and Hebrews 11:1 talk about the certainties of knowledge and faith.

 

[Right Divider]

Verses like Luke 1:4, Proverbs 22:21 and Hebrews 11:1 talk about the certainties of knowledge and faith.

You seem to completely misrepresent those verses.

Luke 1:4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:4) That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. ​

 

[Dougcho]

There's no magical fairy dust (figurative) that God uses to harden or soften people's hearts.
God doesn't force people to believe.
He can send the Holy Spirit to work on people's hearts, but ultimately,
they are the ones who either harden their hearts against the truth, or open up to it.

All I ever said about Lydia was that ...
"The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14, NKJV)

Does the Lord bless everyone in this way?

This proves to me that God chooses to really give some
people the special opportunity to believe and be saved
... whilst NOT giving this experience to others!
Ultimately, Lydia chose to believe ... obviously.

God blesses who He wants to bless, etc.
News Flash ... It is God's perogative!
(Hope I spelled that correctly.)
People don't want God to carry out His perogative
... they want Him to carry out their favorite doctrines.

 

[JudgeRightly]

@Dougcho Please stop with the weird colors, and bolding your entire posts. It is against the forum rules.

I'm not saying you can't use color, but coloring your entire post, and bolding your entire posts, the latter is explicitly not allowed, and the former is annoying to have to deal with, and makes it harder to read.

All I ever said about Lydia was that ...
"The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14, NKJV)

Does the Lord bless everyone in this way?

Is everyone given the gospel of Paul?

No?

Then the answer is no.

Which is why it's so important to go out and preach!

This proves to me that God chooses to really give some people the special opportunity to believe and be saved ... whilst NOT giving this experience to others!

That's not what it shows, though.

Once again, you're reading your Calvinist beliefs into the text.

What it says is:

Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 16:14 - New King James Version

Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

www.biblegateway.com

It just means that she was willing to listen to the gospel Paul preached, "to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Again, there's no "magical fairy dust" that God uses to open or harden people's hearts.

Please listen to this sermon:

If you must, you can skip to 11:55 where Will starts talking about what happened in verses 13 onwards. I do recommend listening to the whole thing, and preferably the entire series, if you have the time, found here:

Paul's 2nd Missionary Journey and Acts

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Ultimately, Lydia chose to believe ... obviously.

She was with other women praying to God, who met there every Sabbath.

If she was unregenerate, why was she praying to God, with other believing women?

God blesses who He wants to bless, etc.

Indeed!

But this wasn't some sort of "blessing" God made upon Lydia, though the gospel is indeed a blessing.

News Flash ... It is God's perogative!
(Hope I spelled that correctly.)

It's "prerogative." And indeed, God can bless whom He wants to bless.

But that's not the point of contention here.

Whom does God bless? Those who listen and believe.

People don't want God to carry out His perogative... they want Him to carry out their favorite doctrines.

Straw man.

 

[Derf]

IMO, nothing in Scripture even hints at this.
If you think there is, please show us.

Sure. The story of Simon the Sorcerer. The parable of the sower, where the seeds on stony ground sprang up quickly, then were scorched because they had no root. The letters to the churches in Revelation where Jesus said they had left their first love.

 

[Dougcho]

@Dougcho Please stop with the weird colors, and bolding your entire posts. It is against the forum rules.

Which is why it's so important to go out and preach!

If she was unregenerate, why was she praying to God, with other believing women?

Bold and colors noted.

Jesus commanded we go out and evangelize because
the called and chosen must hear the Gospel and respond to it
(and w/o regards to WHY they believe).

Lydia was a Jew or Gentile who was not regenerate, butski was a worshiper of God.
Is that okay?
I mean ... she saw the reality of God the Creator, etc. and worshiped Him.

 

[Derf]

Bold and colors noted.

Jesus commanded we go out and evangelize because
the called and chosen must hear the Gospel and respond to it
(and w/o regards to WHY they believe).

Are they the "called and chosen" before they believe?

Lydia was a Jew or Gentile who was not regenerate, butski was a worshiper of God.
Is that okay?
I mean ... she saw the reality of God the Creator, etc. and worshiped Him.

Right, but she still needed the truth of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

 

[Derf]

I agree that our election and the reprobation of others was before the foundation of the world

You think people were reprobated before they existed and before sin occurred?

but I totally disagree with the op's reasons for the election of some and not others...

ok.

We chose our own FATE by faith while our LIVES are predetermined by GOD to bring us to the fulfillment of our self chosen fate.

Huh?? How does that make sense? Isn't our "lives" everything we do in our lifetimes, including birth, death, sin, faith, etc.?

 

[Dougcho]

Are they the "called and chosen" before they believe?

IMO, yes ... they are given the faith to believe by God.
I was thinking they are chosen first, then called to believe, etc.
Butski, the most Rightest of all Dividers convinced me that quite
possibly they are called first, and after believing, are then chosen.

The church has convinced people to be Arminians ...
whereby the people call the shots, decide who will believe, etc.

Re: the OP ...
People are totally unable to choose Jesus and the Gospel,
and thus God must intervene with His grace (unmerited favor)
... and give them to faith to believe the saving Truth.
And it is His prerogative as to WHO He will bless with salvation
and WHO He will allow to continue in their sin and receive God's justice.
God has His reasons for WHY He chooses to save some!
Re: the OP ^^^

 

[SwordOfTruth]

God has His reasons for WHY He chooses to save some!

Lets cut to the chase of this matter.

Is it possible for those who have not been chosen, elected, called to nevertheless believe in Jesus and his resurrection and thus be saved? Yes/No?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Derf]

IMO, yes ... they are given the faith to believe by God.
I was thinking they are chosen first, then called to believe, etc.
Butski, the most Rightest of all Dividers convinced me that quite
possibly they are called first, and after believing, are then chosen.

Then you should be ok with the call being a universal call, if belief is required to be chosen.

The church has convinced people to be Arminians ...
whereby the people call the shots, decide who will believe, etc.

Arminians still have some serious problems, but yes, the people who are doing the believing get to decide what they are going to believe.

Re: the OP ...
People are totally unable to choose Jesus and the Gospel,

No, they aren't.

and thus God must intervene with His grace (unmerited favor)

Only for the salvation, not the believing in the salvation offered. Otherwise you are saying that

... and give them to faith to believe the saving Truth.
And it is His prerogative as to WHO He will bless with salvation
and WHO He will allow to continue in their sin and receive God's justice.

Is it merely allowing to continue, or is it decreeing from the eternity past that they will continue to sin?

God has His reasons for WHY He chooses to save some!
Re: the OP ^^^

Sure. Those that humble themselves are the ones He chooses to save.
[Jas 4:10 KJV] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[Dougcho]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

IMO, your "whosoever" people were given faith ... so they would be able to believe.
The OP makes is clear that for 2 major reasons ... man is unable to believe (on his own).

 

[Derf]

IMO, your "whosoever" people were given the faith so they would be able to believe.

Then it isn't "whosoever", is it.

 

[Dougcho]

Those that humble themselves are the ones He chooses to save.
[Jas 4:10 KJV] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

I wonder if anyone else on this planet believes this refers to salvation?

 

[SwordOfTruth]

IMO, your "whosoever" people were given faith ... so they would be able to believe.
The OP makes is clear that for 2 major reasons ... man is unable to believe (on his own).

lol what utter hogwash. You can talk to millions of Christians who will tetsify that they have never received any kind of special calling or gift of faith. They just got involved with other Christians or churches and decided that they would believe. Some did it out of fear having heard the scaremongering schtick of lakes of fire and so on. Others just enjoyed being around those communities and joined in.

You're ignoring the Bible text because it doesn't support your narrative and twisting it elsewhere to try and make it fit. At the end of the day you're just horribly horribly wrong and doubtless those pompous pious elitist idiots will get a commuppence in the fulness of time.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Bold and colors noted.

Thanks!

Jesus commanded we go out and evangelize because
the called and chosen must hear the Gospel and respond to it
(and w/o regards to WHY they believe).

How can they be called, must less chosen if they haven't heard the gospel?

Aren't you putting the cart before the horse?

Lydia was a Jew or Gentile

She was a seller of purple (dye/clothing, etc) from Thyatira.

who was not regenerate, butski was a worshiper of God.

According to your beliefs (presuming you are a calvinist), the unregenerate do not worship God, nor can they, it's not in their nature.

If she was unregenerate, then she would not have been worshipping God, and the Bible would be wrong.

But she DID worship God.

Which means calvinism is wrong.

Is that okay?
I mean ... she saw the reality of God the Creator, etc. and worshiped Him.

As an unregenerated person?

 

[Dougcho]

Then it isn't "whosoever", is it.

The whosoevers are mentioned to provide people with hope of salvation.
Being an evangelist, I know that people would not be interested
... if their free-will choice might NOT be honored by God.
Let's preach the Gospel and see who jumps all over it.
The NT says it is not possible for those not chosen/called to believe.
The OP says it also (see points 1 and 2 for the reasons).

 

[JudgeRightly]

The whosoevers are mentioned to provide people with hope of salvation.
Being an evangelist, I know that people would not be interested
. . . might NOT be honored by God.
Let's preach the Gospel and see who jumps all over it.
The NT says it is not possible for those not chosen/called to believe.

What hope is there if you hear the gospel, but aren't one of the elect?

Wouldn't that just be a false hope?

If those who are elect are going to be saved anyways, why bother preaching? Why wouldn't God just tell the saved who is going to be saved, and save them then, instead of casting a wide net full of holes?

... if their free-will choice

Sounds like you're trying to sneak people's wills into this (if it isn't free, it's not a will). If the people who are destined for hell because God didn't choose them do not have a choice in the matter, then they do not have "free-will choice" (to use your phrase), period. They do not have a say in the matter.

They have no hope.

And you give them the perfect excuse for judgement day, where they will be able to tell God, to His face, when He asks them why they did what they did during their life, "What else could I do, when the God who didn't love me, predestined me to do those things, to the point where I had no choice in the matter?"

 

[Dougcho]

What hope is there if you hear the gospel, but aren't one of the elect?
Wouldn't that just be a false hope?
If those who are elect are going to be saved anyways, why bother preaching? Why wouldn't God just tell the saved who is going to be saved, and save them then, instead of casting a wide net full of holes?

Sounds like you're trying to sneak people's wills into this (if it isn't free, it's not a will). If the people who are destined for hell because God didn't choose them do not have a choice in the matter, then they do not have "free-will choice" (to use your phrase), period. They do not have a say in the matter.
They have no hope.
And you give them the perfect excuse for judgement day, where they will be able to tell God, to His face, when He asks them why they did what they did during their life, "What else could I do, when the God who didn't love me, predestined me to do those things, to the point where I had no choice in the matter?"

Obviously, God wants it to appear that anyone can be saved.
That gives the elect/called/chosen reason to respond positively to the Gospel.
If He were to explain that only those He chooses will be saved,
the elect/called/chosen would not be so eager to respond.
There would be a hesitancy to respond.