Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

[Clete]

[FONT=&]I'm sorry, I took your words,[/FONT][FONT=&]as an invitation to share my hermeneutic for the rejection of the doctrine of unconditionality for election.[/FONT]

The ENTIRE Calvinist system is irrational from top to bottom. You're modifications are only adds more inconsistency on top of what was already utter insanity. Do yourself a favor and throw the whole mess in the trash and begin from scratch, leaving all the pagan Greek philosophical ideas about what God is supposed to be out of it.

Clete

 

[Clete]

IF there was love or mercy or justice in bringing His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity FOR NO REASON then to not treat all others FOR NO REASON with the same love or mercy and justice is unfair, unloving, non-merciful to them bringing EVEN this concept of justice into disrepute...not GOD's justice but Calvin's sense of HIS justice.

Quite right!

But it isn't just unconditional election that gets crushed by this most universally understood of all Christian precepts (i.e. justice). Not only does the doctrine of unconditional election follow rationally from Calvinism's primary premises, it is those very premises that are destroyed by the qualiitative attributes of God (e.g. living, personal, just, caring, kind, loving, etc.). No such attribute can exist in the immutable, impassible, control freak god of Calvinism.

Clete

 

[MennoSota]

I answered and my answer concerns the way all people enter the world. Not about what happens afterwards.

And since the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in "all things" we can know that all people enter the world perfect.

The Bible proves you to be wrong. Humans are conceived as sinful rebels. This is the curse of Adam described in Romans 5. At this point you have chosen to deny what scripture teaches regarding human nature. There is no more discussion we can have as you have chosen a false premise.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
Yes or no.
God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
Yes or no?

Some lawbreakers? (sinners) Your 'opinion' is in direct contradiction to the written Word of God.

 

[MennoSota]

Do we really believe that God is this arbitrary?




OF course our ignorance does not even hint that HE is arbitrary but the world 'unconditional' sure does even for an unknown condition. A condition is a reason. Unconditional means there is no reason for the choice.

Some are elected for no condition, ie, no reason is found or can be found in them to be elected. IF a reason is found in the others as to why they were NOT elected, then that reason must not be found in those elected and that is their merit, their condition, ie they do not have the reason to not to be elected found in them. In other words, the non-elect have no dis-merit, disqualifying condition nor disqualifying reason found in them. If such a disqualifying reason is found in them, then the lack of that reason is a merit or a condition for those elected to not be passed over for receiving election.

This is why the word "UNCONDITIONAL" forces the implication that GOD damns billions for no reason (ie arbitrarily) but maybe for the fact that HE arbitrarily just does not like them, for no reason. I cannot accept this theology any more...my GOD is not like this.

The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved. If you cannot accept that, then that's on you, not on Calvin or Spurgeon.

 

[MennoSota]

GOD is also obligated to treat people lovingly righteous in accordance with HIS character.

Yes.

IF there was love or mercy or justice in bringing His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity FOR NO REASON then to not treat all others FOR NO REASON with the same love or mercy and justice is unfair, unloving, non-merciful to them bringing EVEN this concept of justice into disrepute...not GOD's justice but Calvin's sense of HIS justice.

God does treat everyone in love. Is it loving to ignore justice?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Scripture says we enter as corrupted people. (Psalm 51 and Romans 5)
What happens in life, after the womb, is that we start acting out our sin nature.
You must accept one of the two choices I have pointed out. Which one is it?

You finally opined something that 'Old GM' agrees with. Since Adam's fall, I'm of the opinion that ALL are born into sin.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved. If you cannot accept that, then that's on you, not on Calvin or Spurgeon.

No, that's on you, Calvin, Augustine, and Spurgeon.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The reason God does not save everyone is because He is not obligated to do so.
What God is obligated to do, by His law and by His nature, is to act justly.
Is it just to punish lawbreakers?
Yes or no.
God had the punishment of some lawbreakers fall upon Jesus. Was God unfair to bring His wrath upon Jesus for the sins of some of humanity, but not all humanity?
Yes or no?

God is not ONLY Just, but He is also: loving, merciful, and willing that NONE should perish. (2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I realize 'you Calvinists' CHANGE the meaning: "That none should perish" too: "That none of the 'Elect' should perish." Your 'belief SYSTEM requires you to change the meaning of certain verses.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who entered this world 'Sinless' and remained so, until the very end.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Bible proves you to be wrong.

No, the Bible states in no uncertain terms that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things."

Not in some things only, as you imagine.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who entered this world 'Sinless' and remained so, until the very end.

So even though people are made in the image of God they enter the world with sin?

In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved by being made alive by the spirit:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).
​

The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity." (Thayer).

So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth.

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Since the renewal of the Holy Spirit is in regard to being made alive spiritually then the previous birth of the Spirit must also be in regard to being made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit. In other words, since a person is "rebirthed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

 

[MennoSota]

No, the Bible states in no uncertain terms that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things."

Not in some things only, as you imagine.

Fine, then you believe Jesus was born a sinner in need of a Savior, because that is the only way you can take that verse completely literal in every aspect.
What you are attempting to argue is that all humans have the potential to be completely perfect if somehow they are not introduced to sin. However, you ignore that scientists have shown that children can lie to parents by the age of 6 months. This is far before they could ever be trained to sin by other humans.
You refuse to accept that humans are conceived as sinners under the curse. You deny Romans 5 and Psalm 51:5.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fine, then you believe Jesus was born a sinner in need of a Savior, because that is the only way you can take that verse completely literal in every aspect.

God created mankind upright:

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. " (Ps.139:13-14).​

 

[MennoSota]

God created mankind upright:

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. " (Ps.139:13-14).​

God created mankind upright:

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

The Lord Jesus was created upright just like His brethren. And here is the way that David said he was made by God:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. " (Ps.139:13-14).​

Context in both passages proves you are butchering scripture in an attempt to make a fallacious argument.
Jerry, you are wrong. We will not agree on the human condition.

 

[glorydaz]

However, you ignore that scientists have shown that children can lie to parents by the age of 6 months.

:rotfl:

Matthew 18:2-3
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Context in both passages proves you are butchering scripture in an attempt to make a fallacious argument.

Prove it.

Jerry, you are wrong. We will not agree on the human condition.

As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).​

Here is how David said he was made:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."


I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.

 

[ttruscott]

The unconditional is only for those whom God elects to save. It is not for the unsaved.

I don't know if I accept that yet - first I hear do it. Non-election IS conditional for those passed over for election. Hmmmm...I wonder if election is not for those not chosen for salvation for 1. no reason, for 2. an unknown reason or for 3. their sinfulness, which?? Are the non-elect not elected due to their sinfulness, yet the elect are elected IN THEIR SINS without any merit or condition or reason...?

Are the non-elect not elected due to their sinfulness, yet the elect are elected IN SPITE OF their sinfulness and for no reason?

This is sort of important to me because if the non-elect are not elected due to their sinfulness then this also applies to those chosen to be elect since they are sinful too.

Therefore I think you have to just tell me what is the condition of those not saved that caused them to be passed over for election to heaven with the others. I can't figure it out...

 

[ttruscott]

God does treat everyone in love. Is it loving to ignore justice?

No!

Is it loving to save some from justice for no reason and not others? I don't think those passed over feel it is very loving to be damned for their sins since they are not being saved like the sinner right next to him. How do you explain that GOD is loving them when HE ignores them to be saved while HE saves the next guy for no reason? Would you want to be loved that way, passed over for salvation for your sins in the name of love while other sinners are elected to salvation for no reason for that same love?

My goodness....

 

[MennoSota]

Prove it.



As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).​

Here is how David said he was made:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."


I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.

Prove it.



As long as you continue to deny that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" then you will never see the truth:

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).​

This is what you state with complete literalness.
Therefore, you claim Jesus was born a sinner.

Here is how David said he was made:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

All humans are fearfully and wonderfully made. That does not remove the curse of sin that transfers from Adam to us. Read Romans 5.

John Calvin wrote that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."

Paul wrote: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
In your teaching, man has the capacity to be sinless without the need of God's atonement.
[/QUOTE]
I think I will follow what David wrote because what Calvin said directly contradicts what David said. How could Calvin ever come to that conclusion since the Scriptures declare that God made man UPRIGHT?:[/QUOTE]
You mean Psalms 51:5 when David says he was a sinner at conception? Great, follow what David wrote.

"'Look,' says the Teacher, 'this is what I have discovered: Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'" (Eccl.7:25-29; NIV).​

But zero upright women...by your teaching.
Of course that must mean women are born sinners, but not men by your twisted theory.

The Bible says that God made man upright and Calvin said that everything that is in man is defiled from his intellect to his body and his soul.

But, there are no upright women...since you are taking "upright" to be a synonym to "perfect."

At what point will you admit you have constructed one of the most moronic theories ever created by a sinner? Just wondering, because it isn't worth responding to you if you maintain such a poorly conceived theory.