Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
All people emerge from the womb perfect because they are made in the image of God.
Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity
- Thread starter Clete
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All people emerge from the womb perfect because they are made in the image of God.
I have provided scripture that declares your statement to be false.
Adam and Eve were made in the image of God. When sin entered their lives a corruption was introduced which is passed on to all humanity so that we are born in corruption.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is how the Lord chooses who will be saved:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No you didn't!
All you did was to quote verses which you don't understand in a failed attempt to prove that what is written here is not true:
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
Here we can see that all people are made in the image of God:
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man" (Gen.9:6).
The reason why all murderers are to be put to death is because those murdered are created in the image of God. What is said here would not make any sense if just Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. We also read the following which is in regard to the same truth:
"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God" (Jas.3:9).
The Greek word translated "curse we" is in the "present" tense so the words about being made after the similitude of God are describing all people and not just Adam and Eve.
How did God make His decision? Your verse does not say.
What your verse says is that God chose you to be saved. Salvation is then tied to the Holy Spirit separating you and giving you faith to believe.
You must ask the question: How can a person, who is dead in their trespasses and sins, "believe the truth"? What must happen to a dead person before they can believe?
Thankfully Ephesians 2:1-10 provides the answer.
A person must be chosen, by God, and made alive in Christ so that God might give them faith to believe and be sanctified.
Using one verse to try create a doctrine around it is very dangerous. That is how many cults are formed. The entirety of scripture must inform our understanding of God's work in redemption.
You haven't addressed the issue.
Either
1) all humans are perfect and thus Jesus is made perfect like all other humans
or...
2) all humans are sinners and thus Jesus is made sinful like all other humans.
Which one is it?
These are the only two conclusions we can have, based upon your interpretation of Hebrews 2:7.
Second, if we continue with your assertion regarding being made in the exact image of God, this would mean humans are all powerful, immortal beings who are sovereign over all. We are thus equals with God in all aspects because we are in God's image.
Now, I suspect you will rightfully balk at that concept and set parameters around what it means to be made in the image of God. Therein lies our difference. What nuance do you apply to being made in the image of God so that you can account for human sinfulness?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
All humans emerge perfect from the womb and the Lord Jesus likewise emerged from the womb perfect.
Then when people sin they are no longer perfect but since the Lord never sinned He remains perfect.
Both Adam and Eve were made in the image of God and they both sinned. They sinned because they had a free will and we all sin because we have a free will.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He chooses those who believe:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Your first assertion is not substantiated by scripture.
Your second assertion is your dogma about free will, but is also not substantiated by scripture.
No
God chose sinners. God made those who were dead in their trespasses and sins, alive in Christ so that they would have the faith to believe. This is shown very clearly in Ephesians and Colossians. Will you ignore other scripture in order to cling to your own position?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let's look at this verse from Ephesians which speaks on people being dead in their sins:
"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1).
Paul tells these Christians that they were previously dead in their sins. They weren't previously dead physically but instead spiritually. And they died spiritually when they sinned so that means that they were alive spiritually before they sinned.
That can only mean that these people emerged from the womb spiritully alive. And that matches what we read here:
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
IN ALL THINGS. The Lord's brethren emerge from the womb spiritually alive and since the Lord was made like them "in all things" He too emerged from the womb spiritually alive.
No, it does not mean, nor does it imply that humans are born innocent.
Psalm 51:5 tells us, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
We are spiritually dead at conception. We are born as rebels. Scientists have observed children as young as 6 months already deceiving their parents.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In this passage David was using figurative language while confessing to the LORD his deep sense of guilt for his sin. When we examine the context where David speaks of being conceived in sin we see that David employed figurative language numerous times, or else we must believe that God breaks the bones of people when they sin or that the broken bones rejoice when forgiven.
In order to find the truth about how people are made must look at what David said at another place about how He was created by God:
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).
What David says here matches perfectly with what we read here:
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
According to your ideas all people are born as rebels and in sin despite the fact that the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS!
You say David used figurative language, but you force sin/perfection into Hebrews2:7 and demand no nuance. You then take Psalm 139, which speaks nothing about perfection and try to force it into Hebrews 2. You simply provide an example of poor hermaneutics.
You also ignore the evidence provided by scientific observation. Children as young as 6 months reveal the corruption of their nature.
We are in a classic nature versus nurture argument. Trace your argument back and it shows your nurture theory to be incorrect.
As long as you insist upon creating your theology from one sentence and not the entirety of scripture, we will be at an impasse.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
One sentence?
So far I have quoted Hebrews 2:17, Ephesians 2:1 and Psalm 139:13-14 to prove my point.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Please consider: Here's some fodder from the mill:
Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?
GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as Rom 8:29 just said predestination means and as per Matthew 7:21–23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.
[Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.] This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.
Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?
1. Merit based Election before Creation?
The basis cannot be, as some have suggested, some merit in humans, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.
Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.
2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this:
The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons for by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.
First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution / wrath) holiness and omnipotence.
Secondly, the truth regarding the elects' end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both ends.
Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:
In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.
Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.
First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.
Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential. In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].
Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation / perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.
Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.
Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge/forelove not including everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions: We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.
This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life"love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?
Now, according to preconception theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-human life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before the creation of the physical universe) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM. Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest.
Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose by choosing to sin the unforgivable sin and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose; some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (by means of election) to them (His fallen church). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the evil ones who were condemned already for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.
Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception as humans. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate pre-conception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.
May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, ie, no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life as a sinner.
Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-human life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-conception existence.
The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us. But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced choice on our part if we are ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD. His purpose for us necessitates a free will choice to join that purpose or it is a tape recorder, Stepford wife, type of agreement.
Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, Being called in accord with a pre-conception work and HIS gracious covenant to those who performed that work.
The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too. 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels... Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), ie, they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices. In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them?
If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures being unjustly un-predestined to remain in heaven, or predestined for hell?
And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?
Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.
Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.
Well, if you are willing to accept the possibility of their choice / works being a part of the basis of their election, why can that not be a part of the basis of ours too?
May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth.
Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses. And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil works.
But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting* so much in the womb. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, since it is impossible that both were following the Holy Spirit in their struggles with each other. So, although it is possible that neither was being good, it is impossible that neither was being evil.
* The word is not to jostle or struggle or to wrestle but to try to crush each other to pieces! Why tame down this word? To tame down their being sinful in the womb which makes Paul, on the surface, to be a liar. Do you think he knew this quirk of logical analysis would some day come to light and put it in as a testimony to their evil pre-human conception?
Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.
In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil works (on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).
Thus we can see that Paul did not exclude our pre-human birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.
You are making Hebrews 2:17 the key verse and then trying to shove other verses in as proof. The other verses don't fit.
The fact is that humans are sinful. Either Jesus was sinful or he was perfect. He cannot be both. If Jesus is exactly like other humans in every way, as you are claiming, then you are forced to state that Jesus was a sinner.
My point is that you are misinterpreting Hebrews 2:17.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If the verse which precedes the one you quoted is examined we can see that those who are spoken of as being "predestined" are actually the saved, so the "predestination" is not unto salvation.
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done..it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Here is another translation which makes the meaning even more clear:
"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29; NET).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved (those who love God, those he describes as the called)--"because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But not from birth. And the verses I quoted work together to prove that people do not enter the world dead in sin and totally corrupted in both body and soul.
He entered the world wonderfully made, the same way that David said that he himself was made.
I said that the Lord Jesus is exactly like humans in every way in regard to the way people emerged from the womb. Not later after one sins.
Then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the verse.
What is your interpretation of Hebrews 2:17? :think: