Unconditional Election vs. Total Depravity

ttruscott

Well-known member
Of course you fail to address what I said about Romans 5:12. And please tell me why the rest of Romans 5 proves that what I said about all people dying spiritually when they sin means that all people must first be alive spiritually.

Yes, all people were alive spiritually before they could die spiritually but that time of aliveness is NOT on earth as you assume from the current 'created on earth' bias. It was long before the creation of the physical universe with its human life and we fell during that time too, arriving here as sinners sown into the world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:38-39...only sinners are sown into this world, no innocents nor those not dead in their sins, Christ excepted of course.
 

MennoSota

New member
HIS love cannot save them. By choosing to sin the unforgivable sin they are outside of HIS loving mercy
.
What, in your opinion, is the unforgivable sin? What sin causes Jesus shed blood and atonement to be wasted and spilt in vain?

I call the Calvinist doctrine that HE could have elected everyone for no reason as unloving to those HE did not elect for no reason.
So you blame God and call him unloving and evil if He chooses to justly condemn sinners for their law breaking while he chooses some to ransom.
In your thinking, it must be all or nothing.
God cannot be a Sovereign King who chooses whom He will adopt, from before the foundation of the world.
In your opinion, God is unloving and unfair when He chooses to give the gracious gift of salvation to whom He wills. In your opinion, God must set the gift down on the corner and humans are fully responsible for whether they open the gift, walk past the gift, never know about the gift or seek to destroy the gift. God's only action is to place the gift on the corner and then wait with hidden cameras to see what humans do.
Any choosing, on God's part, to put a label on the gift and hand it out to whom He wills is, by your thinking, unfair, unloving and an evil action by the Sovereign King.
I know HE is loving so if HE could have saved everyone HE would have as per 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
You are saying God has his hands tied and cannot help. God is weak.
HIS choice to pass over some for election was not unloving as Calvinism suggests
Calvinism doesn't suggest this.
"In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:5-6)
but was based upon the condition, the reason, that they chose to reject HIM as an evil person, a false god and a liar, thus sinning the unforgivable sin and putting themselves outside of HIS love and HIS mercy.
No, it is based upon the fact that all humanity is born under the curse of sin and has fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3 and Romans 5)

You very likely make the unforgivable sin out to be that humans reject Jesus atonement and cannot therefore be forgiven of that rejection.
You make God into a weak, passive observer who is evil if He chooses whom he wills.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I chose the parts that 'stuck out to me.' I have long believed that Calvinism is not logical. It not only changes the character of God, it also changes the Scriptures to fit the 'Calvinist belief SYSTEM.'

There is no question that this is true. Calvinism is, I think, a form of delusion. It's a genuine mental disorder. Getting them to see reason is all but impossible. Here on TOL is to a point where you can't hardly get any Calvinist to even engage the debate in anything that resembles a rational debate. Heck, I can't hardly get them to even acknowledge Calvin's own words! But I've gotta start somewhere with these people, right? I mean, the best that I can do is to pick away at the Calvinist lie at every point of weakness that I can find and hope that eventually it will break through and cause someone to realize that it's just a giant mess.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
There is no contradiction between predestination and God ordaining the choices humans make every day, indeed every moment of the day.
Saying it doesn't make it so, MS!

How can I have chosen an action if that action was immutably predestined by someone other than me before I ever existed?

This seems to perplex you greatly in that you cannot wrap your head around it.
No one can wrap their head around it, MS! Even Calvinists acknowledge it as an antinomy and refer to the doctrine as part of the "mystery of the gospel".

Are you sure you're actually a Calvinist?

You make a false equivalency that you, making a decision, equals free will.
Saying it doesn't make it so, MS.

Do you know how to make an argument?

Do you understand that making a claim and making an argument to support the claim is NOT the same thing?

Again, I will ask you, what does God mean when He says you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?
This actually happens to be a beautiful example of how Calvinists routinely bring their doctrine to the scripture and refuse to be consistent with themselves.

If it meant what you're implying then it would mean that people who are slaves of righteousness are incapable of doing evil just as slaves to sin are incapable of doing right. If it were the proof text of Calvinistic total depravity that you think it is, it would also be a proof text of the Weslian (Arminian) doctrine of sinless perfection.

Not a great result for you, I think.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Not at all.
Unlike you're mindless denial, I actually made an argument. You'r flat denial doesn't count as a rebuttal.

No. You are presenting a Pelagian argument.
I don't give a damn and Palagius. Where Palagius agrees with me, he was right, where he doesn't he was wrong.

No human has ever accused Calvin or Spurgeon of teaching a Pelagian heresy.
I have quoted their own words! I haven't put words in their mouth or made it seem like they were saying something other than what they meant. If you want to say that either Calvin or Spurgeon believed something other than what I've presented then MAKE THE ARGUMENT! Show me how I've misrepresented something, if you can (you can't)!

No it's not Spurgeon's position. Spurgeon never taught Pelagian heresy. There are a number of your colleagues teaching Pelagian heresy, but Spurgeon was not one of them.
What the hell are you even talking about! IT YOUR POSITION YOU BLIThERING IDIOT!

Your own argument parallels Spurgeon's! Here, I'll quote it for you again...

This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)[/indnet]

And elsewhere Spurgeon stated explicitly...

Election does not involve reprobation. There may be some who hold unconditional reprobation. I stand not here as their defender, let them defend themselves as best they can… If he be lost, damnation is all of man; but, if he be saved, still salvation is all of God.​

You struggle with God allowing choices to be acted upon by his ordained will, yet these choices do not constitute free will. You seem to oppose God when He tells us that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Freedom is not a third option.
I struggle with no such thing. The argument is very specific. Justice is what it is. Calvinist want to redefine it to mean nothing at all when applied to God such the he could do anything at all and it would be just by definition. But the nasty thing about being rational is that words mean things! And it flat out is not just to punish people for actions that you predestined and even created them to do which is precisely what Ca

No. You just have no clue regarding the Sovereign grace of God and therefore you struggle to comprehend what Spurgeon is talking about. You pick and choose a couple of quotes while missing the whole. It is a very common tactic, usually used by intra-biblical cult members.
This was a lie!

I have caught you in an intention lie!

If this were even half true - no if you even thought that this might be half true - you'd have done a whole lot more than merely made this assinine claim! I have quoted Spurgeon's own words and referenced where those quotes can be found and verified. If you actually thought for half a second that I had pulled what you've accused me of pulling it would have been easy for you to prove it.

But you didn't because you knew when you said it that it wasn't true.

You are a liar!

Does that make you a slave of sin or of righteousness, MS? :rolleyes:

Clete​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The rest of the passage answers your question. Because of Adam we die both spiritually and physically.

So are you saying that the death spoken of in the second part of Romans 5:12 is both a physical death and a spiritual death?

In that case, since all people die spiritually when they sin then that can only mean that at one time or another all people who died spiritually were alive spiritually. After all, it is impossible to die spiritually unless a person is first alive spiritually. And the only way that "all people" can be alive spiritually is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

I will let the passage itself support my answer.

Those verses do not say how Adam's sin lead to the spiritual death of all people. Even those in the Reformed camp admit that. Henri Blocher says that Paul's explanation about how Adam communicated a sinful bent to his posterity should be expected at Romans 5:12-19 but it is not found there:

"It is rather strange that the core idea, or the hinge of the apostle's purpoted logic - that Adam communicated the sinful bent to his posterity - should not be expressed at all in the passage. It 'might' be explicit; undoubtedly, Paul did share the opinion; yet how surprising that he should not include something here, of all places, to make it clear!"
(Henri Blocher , Original Sin: Illuminating the Riddle, 66).​

Douglas Moo writes that Paul said nothing about how the sin of Adam resulted in the death of everyone:

"Paul says nothing explicitly about 'how' the sin of one man, Adam, has resulted in death for everyone; nor has he made clear the connection between Adam's sin (v. 12a) and the sin of all people (v. 12d)." (Douglas J. Moo, Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 122).​

If you know something which these men do not know then let's hear it.

The clue to knowing how Adam's sin lead to the spiritual death of all people is found at Romans 5:13-14 and a correct understanding about which "law" is being spoken of there:

"For this cause, even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law; but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even upon those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him to come" (Ro.5:12-14).​
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
A question for MennSota...

If someone sets your house on fire in the middle of the night and then, once the house is fully engulfed in flames, rushes in to rescue you and your 2nd child but decides to leave your wife and your other ten kids to burn in the fire, do you praise the man as a hero or condemn him as a murderer?


Clete
 

MennoSota

New member
Saying it doesn't make it so, MS!

How can I have chosen an action if that action was immutably predestined by someone other than me before I ever existed?


No one can wrap their head around it, MS! Even Calvinists acknowledge it as an antinomy and refer to the doctrine as part of the "mystery of the gospel".

Are you sure you're actually a Calvinist?


Saying it doesn't make it so, MS.

Do you know how to make an argument?

Do you understand that making a claim and making an argument to support the claim is NOT the same thing?


This actually happens to be a beautiful example of how Calvinists routinely bring their doctrine to the scripture and refuse to be consistent with themselves.

If it meant what you're implying then it would mean that people who are slaves of righteousness are incapable of doing evil just as slaves to sin are incapable of doing right. If it were the proof text of Calvinistic total depravity that you think it is, it would also be a proof text of the Weslian (Arminian) doctrine of sinless perfection.

Not a great result for you, I think.

Clete

Saying it doesn't make it so, MS!

How can I have chosen an action if that action was immutably predestined by someone other than me before I ever existed?
How can a slave choose where to walk on the plantation and yet not have freedom to do as he pleases?

No one can wrap their head around it, MS! Even Calvinists acknowledge it as an antinomy and refer to the doctrine as part of the "mystery of the gospel".

Are you sure you're actually a Calvinist?
God does not give us access to all his thoughts and reasons. I am fine with accepting that He chooses, predestines and elects...just as he tells us in scripture. I don't have to talk around it or try to excuse it. I accept it.

Saying it doesn't make it so, MS.

Do you know how to make an argument?

Do you understand that making a claim and making an argument to support the claim is NOT the same thing?
Do you understand that God opposed you in scripture?

This actually happens to be a beautiful example of how Calvinists routinely bring their doctrine to the scripture and refuse to be consistent with themselves.

If it meant what you're implying then it would mean that people who are slaves of righteousness are incapable of doing evil just as slaves to sin are incapable of doing right.
Not at all. It means we are not free. We don't have free will. Moreover the Bible never mentions free will at any point.
If it were the proof text of Calvinistic total depravity that you think it is, it would also be a proof text of the Weslian (Arminian) doctrine of sinless perfection.
Not at all. Once again, as with Hebrews 2, you come to a false conclusion.
Not a great result for you, I think.

Clete
The result is that God is fully Sovereign over all his Creation, in every aspect. God does what He wills and you have to put on your big boy pants and accept it.
 

MennoSota

New member
Unlike you're mindless denial, I actually made an argument. You'r flat denial doesn't count as a rebuttal.


I don't give a damn and Palagius. Where Palagius agrees with me, he was right, where he doesn't he was wrong.


I have quoted their own words! I haven't put words in their mouth or made it seem like they were saying something other than what they meant. If you want to say that either Calvin or Spurgeon believed something other than what I've presented then MAKE THE ARGUMENT! Show me how I've misrepresented something, if you can (you can't)!


What the hell are you even talking about! IT YOUR POSITION YOU BLIThERING IDIOT!

Your own argument parallels Spurgeon's! Here, I'll quote it for you again...

This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)[/indnet]

And elsewhere Spurgeon stated explicitly...

Election does not involve reprobation. There may be some who hold unconditional reprobation. I stand not here as their defender, let them defend themselves as best they can… If he be lost, damnation is all of man; but, if he be saved, still salvation is all of God.​


I struggle with no such thing. The argument is very specific. Justice is what it is. Calvinist want to redefine it to mean nothing at all when applied to God such the he could do anything at all and it would be just by definition. But the nasty thing about being rational is that words mean things! And it flat out is not just to punish people for actions that you predestined and even created them to do which is precisely what Ca


This was a lie!

I have caught you in an intention lie!

If this were even half true - no if you even thought that this might be half true - you'd have done a whole lot more than merely made this assinine claim! I have quoted Spurgeon's own words and referenced where those quotes can be found and verified. If you actually thought for half a second that I had pulled what you've accused me of pulling it would have been easy for you to prove it.

But you didn't because you knew when you said it that it wasn't true.

You are a liar!

Does that make you a slave of sin or of righteousness, MS? :rolleyes:

Clete​
You're becoming bitter and cursing. I can hear your teeth gnashing, Clete.
I don't care what Spurgeon or Calvin say. They read scripture and spoke about scripture.
What is important is God's word, given to us in the Bible. I will stick with it. You are free to run down your rabbit trail of irrelevance, Clete.​
 

MennoSota

New member
So are you saying that the death spoken of in the second part of Romans 5:12 is both a physical death and a spiritual death?

In that case, since all people die spiritually when they sin then that can only mean that at one time or another all people who died spiritually were alive spiritually. After all, it is impossible to die spiritually unless a person is first alive spiritually. And the only way that "all people" can be alive spiritually is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.



Those verses do not say how Adam's sin lead to the spiritual death of all people. Even those in the Reformed camp admit that. Henri Blocher says that Paul's explanation about how Adam communicated a sinful bent to his posterity should be expected at Romans 5:12-19 but it is not found there:

"It is rather strange that the core idea, or the hinge of the apostle's purpoted logic - that Adam communicated the sinful bent to his posterity - should not be expressed at all in the passage. It 'might' be explicit; undoubtedly, Paul did share the opinion; yet how surprising that he should not include something here, of all places, to make it clear!"
(Henri Blocher , Original Sin: Illuminating the Riddle, 66).​

Douglas Moo writes that Paul said nothing about how the sin of Adam resulted in the death of everyone:

"Paul says nothing explicitly about 'how' the sin of one man, Adam, has resulted in death for everyone; nor has he made clear the connection between Adam's sin (v. 12a) and the sin of all people (v. 12d)." (Douglas J. Moo, Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 122).​

If you know something which these men do not know then let's hear it.

The clue to knowing how Adam's sin lead to the spiritual death of all people is found at Romans 5:13-14 and a correct understanding about which "law" is being spoken of there:

"For this cause, even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law; but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even upon those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him to come" (Ro.5:12-14).​
All humanity was alive, spiritually, in the Garden with Adam. When Adam sinned, we sinned with him. We are under the curse given to Adam and Eve.
This also explains the judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 by the way. That passage is a great passage on election.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The result is that God is fully Sovereign over all his Creation, in every aspect. God does what He wills and you have to put on your big boy pants and accept it.

According to the theory of Original Sin every person enters the world "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (The Westminster Confession of Faith, VI/4).

According to the theory the LORD makes people wholly inclined to all evil and then he punishes them for doing the very thing which He designed them to do:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Sir Robert Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament, 75).
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Unlike you're mindless denial, I actually made an argument. You'r flat denial doesn't count as a rebuttal.


I don't give a damn and Palagius. Where Palagius agrees with me, he was right, where he doesn't he was wrong.


I have quoted their own words! I haven't put words in their mouth or made it seem like they were saying something other than what they meant. If you want to say that either Calvin or Spurgeon believed something other than what I've presented then MAKE THE ARGUMENT! Show me how I've misrepresented something, if you can (you can't)!


What the hell are you even talking about! IT YOUR POSITION YOU BLIThERING IDIOT!

Your own argument parallels Spurgeon's! Here, I'll quote it for you again...

This election of God is sovereign. He chooseth as he will. Who shall call him to account? "Can I not do as I will with my own?" is his answer to every caviller. "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" is the solemn utterance that silences every one who would impugn the justice of the Most High. He has a right, seeing we are all criminals, to punish whom he will. As king of the universe he doubtless acts with discretion, but still according to his sovereignty. Wisely not wantonly he rules, but ever according to the counsel of his own will. Election, then, is sovereign.

I come to the hardest part of my task this morning, Election in its justice. Now, I shall defend this great fact, that God has chosen men to himself, and I shall regard it from rather a different point of view from that which is usually taken. My defence is just this. You tell me, if God has chosen some men to eternal life, that he has been unjust. I ask you to prove it. The burden of the proof lies with you. For I would have you remember that none merited this at all. Is there one man in the whole world who would have the impertinence to say that he merits anything of his Maker? If so, be it known unto you that he shall have all he merits; and his reward will be the flames of hell for ever, for that is the utmost that any man ever merited of God. God is in debt to no man, and at the last great day every man shall have as much love as much pity, and as much goodness, as he deserves. (Sermon on Election 6:244)[/indnet]

And elsewhere Spurgeon stated explicitly...

Election does not involve reprobation. There may be some who hold unconditional reprobation. I stand not here as their defender, let them defend themselves as best they can… If he be lost, damnation is all of man; but, if he be saved, still salvation is all of God.​


I struggle with no such thing. The argument is very specific. Justice is what it is. Calvinist want to redefine it to mean nothing at all when applied to God such the he could do anything at all and it would be just by definition. But the nasty thing about being rational is that words mean things! And it flat out is not just to punish people for actions that you predestined and even created them to do which is precisely what Ca


This was a lie!

I have caught you in an intention lie!

If this were even half true - no if you even thought that this might be half true - you'd have done a whole lot more than merely made this assinine claim! I have quoted Spurgeon's own words and referenced where those quotes can be found and verified. If you actually thought for half a second that I had pulled what you've accused me of pulling it would have been easy for you to prove it.

But you didn't because you knew when you said it that it wasn't true.

You are a liar!

Does that make you a slave of sin or of righteousness, MS? :rolleyes:

Clete​


Calvinist's 'pat answer' to those who debate an opposite view is, "You don't fully understand Calvinism." (Reformed theology) Or, they'll say: "You have misunderstood what Calvin, Augustine, and others who teach/preach Calvinism." They assume that it's impossible for the non-Calvinist to understand the 'Calvinist belief system.' In this 'Age of the Laptop', we ALL have access to what Calvin, Augustine, and others have stated in the past and present. In spite of that, Calvinist's seem to think, they have the 'corner' on truth, information, and knowledge when it comes to their 'belief system.'​
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Out of necessity, Calvinist's MUST run Scripture through their, 'Calvinist filter' before they represent (misrepresent) what the Scripture verse, truly means. They just have to align Scripture with their 'Calvinist belief SYSTEM.' That's how they roll.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yes, all people were alive spiritually before they could die spiritually but that time of aliveness is NOT on earth as you assume from the current 'created on earth' bias. It was long before the creation of the physical universe with its human life and we fell during that time too, arriving here as sinners sown into the world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:38-39...only sinners are sown into this world, no innocents nor those not dead in their sins, Christ excepted of course.

So you believe in the pre-existence of humans?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I've, for the most part, have always attended a community non-denominational Christian Church. (Bible-believing, Christ-centered, and Dispensationalist.) (Pauline) I visited a few Charismatic Churches many years ago and I couldn't go along with their beliefs. (I don't believe the 'Gifts' mentioned in the Bible are still in effect today in this 'Dispensation of Grace.' My Mom grew up a Lutheran (until she became a member of the 'Body of Christ' in the 1960's. My Dad was a Methodist until he became a member of the 'Body of Christ,' also in the 1960's)

I believe the 'Gospel of the grace of God' (as Paul called it) is revealed in the writings of the Apostle Paul. (Romans through Philemon)
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Not at all. It means we are not free. We don't have free will. Moreover the Bible never mentions free will at any point.

Then by what standard is it just for anyone to be punished for their actions? By what definition of the word 'justice' can Hell exist?

Once again, it is YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, and that of Spurgeon, that presupposes free will. Yours implicitly and Spurgeon's explicitly, which is the point of the thread. You cannot be consistent with your own docgrine and believe that God is just without rendering the term to mean it's opposite when applied to God.

You're becoming bitter and cursing. I can hear your teeth gnashing, Clete.
Liars make me angry.

I don't care what Spurgeon or Calvin say. They read scripture and spoke about scripture.
What is important is God's word, given to us in the Bible. I will stick with it. You are free to run down your rabbit trail of irrelevance, Clete.

So, once again and as predicted, a Calvinist doesn't wish to debate Calvinism nor what the two most famous Calvinists of all time taught.

Why did you bother posting on the thread in the first place.

Don't bother answering. I don't care.
 

MennoSota

New member
Please quote the verses from the Bible where that is found.
Romans 5
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

MennoSota

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Then by what standard is it just for anyone to be punished for their actions? By what definition of the word 'justice' can Hell exist?

Once again, it is YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, and that of Spurgeon, that presupposes free will. Yours implicitly and Spurgeon's explicitly, which is the point of the thread. You cannot be consistent with your own docgrine and believe that God is just without rendering the term to mean it's opposite when applied to God.


Liars make me angry.



So, once again and as predicted, a Calvinist doesn't wish to debate Calvinism nor what the two most famous Calvinists of all time taught.

Why did you bother posting on the thread in the first place.

Don't bother answering. I don't care.
Indeed, because what you call "Calvinism", I call biblical teaching. I really don't care what Calvin said. I care what the Bible says and often times Calvin and I observe the same things in scripture.
Sola Scriptura, Clete.
 

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We don't have free will.

This sort of unqualified declaration is what gets many into trouble and leads to misunderstandings.

A standard definition of libertarian freedom is leeway freedom: a moral agent can opt for two or more courses of action under the exact same circumstances. So there are ever so many different and divergent ways to complete the future. Given the same past, and billions of free agents, there are countless ways the future might turn out. Moreover, the choices of multiple free agents interact with each other or counteract each other. In addition, this impacts natural events inasmuch as humans often manipulate natural process to yield desired results.

Is such a "free will" described in Scripture. I think not.

Scripture clearly denies free-will to be an absolute independence on God’s providence in doing of any thing, and of His grace in doing that which is good or a self-sufficiency in all its operations. Scripture denies a plenary indifference of doing what we will, this or that, as being neither determined to the one thing nor inclined to the other thing by any overruling influence from heaven.

Accepting the above implies that the good acts of our wills have no dependence on God’s providence as they are acts, nor on His grace as they are good; but in both regards proceed from such a principle arising within us as is in no way moved by any superior agent (God).

We deny any autonomy of our wills, because they are created; and the second, because they are corrupted. Their creation hinders them from doing any thing of themselves without the assistance of God’s providence; and their corruption, from doing any thing that is good without God's grace. A self-sufficiency for operation, without the effectual motion of God, the first cause of all things, cannot be allowed neither to men nor angels, unless we intend to make them gods; and a power of doing good, equal to that they have of doing evil. We must not grant this to man by nature, unless we will deny the fall of Adam, and fancy ourselves still in paradise.

Defining free will therefore can be difficult. The definition cannot make God the author of sin, but neither it cannot limit the free will of God.

The point I am trying to make, is that while we have a will, our will is unlike God's omniscient and all powerful will. Our will is limited because we can be influenced by outside forces, and also influenced by internal changes in regeneration, being born in original sin, etc. Of course God has ordained (decreed) these outside forces to occur naturally, freely, or necessarily such that no violence is done to our will. At this point objections arise by those that seek to get behind the curtain, if you will, to speculate and/or decry how God actually pulls this off. To them, while God is able to merely speak and create all that exists, He is somehow not able to ordain all that has, is, or will happen, without necessarily treading upon their Holy of Holies: "free will".

It is best to define free will to be the ability of a moral agent to choose according to his greatest inclinations at the moment he so chooses. Scripture is replete with examples of this notion of free will.

Unfortunately, the anti-Calvinists have taken the term free will to often refer to the ability of man to believe without even the work of God in regeneration. This is due to the error that assumes we are free to choose or select our nature.

The Fall left the human will intact insofar as we still have the faculty of choosing. Our minds have been darkened by sin and our desires bound by wicked impulses. But we can still think, choose, and act. Yet something terrible has happened to us. We have lost all desire for God. The thoughts and desires of our heart are only evil continuously. The freedom of our will is a curse. Because we can still choose according to our desires, we choose to sin and thus we become accountable to the judgment of God.

As fallen human beings we retain our natural freedom (the power to act according to our desires) but lose moral freedom. Every choice we make is determined by something. There is a reason for it, a desire behind it. This sounds like determinism. No! Determinism teaches that our actions are completely controlled by something external to us, making us do what we don't want to do. That is coercion and is opposed to freedom. How can our choices be determined but not coerced? Because they are determined by something within—by what we are (nature) and by what we desire (will). They are determined by ourselves. This is self-determination, which is the very essence of freedom.

Yes, for us to choose Christ, God must change our heart. Indeed, this is precisely what God does. He changes our nature for us. He gives us a desire for Himself that we otherwise would not have. Then we choose Him out of the desire that is within us. We freely choose Him because we want to choose Him. That is the wonder of His grace.

For more, see:
https://www.monergism.com/blog/common-objections-reformed-doctrine-predestination

AMR
 
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